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Inspire

Iron John Story: Male Initiation and the Wild Man Archetype

Robert Bly
Robert Bly
Mar 15, 2016
読了 約12分

In this 84-minute teaching, Robert Bly unfolds the Grimm fairy tale of Iron John—a story of a young boy who must abandon the safety of his mother and father to follow a wild, hairy man into the forest and encounter a holy spring. Through this narrative, Bly maps the stages of male psychological development, the necessity of separation from maternal protection, the wounding that initiatory work requires, and the role of the elder male in teaching young men how to honor both wildness and dignity. The story is not allegory but a practical map of how men in archaic cultures were initiated into manhood, and how modern men remain arrested without such passage.

読む · 10セクション

The Forest No One Enters: Setting the Unconscious Stage

The story opens with a king and queen living in a castle near a forest—a forest so dangerous that no one who enters it ever returns. Thirty hunters go in. Twenty-five more. Forty more. All vanish. The family simply agrees to leave that part of the forest alone. As Bly notes, a day in a fairy story is like five to ten years in our time, so this represents generations of avoidance, a long cultural forgetting.

What is this forest? Bly suggests it represents the unconscious, the wild instinctual world that civilized consciousness—the castle, the king's rational rule—has agreed not to explore. Most of us never enter it. We live in the known world of manners, school, work, family duty. The forest is what lies below, what we were taught not to touch.

One day a young hunter arrives at the castle and asks the king: is there anything around here we shouldn't do? The king warns him: the return rate is not good. The young hunter responds with the attitude that defines the beginning of initiation: that's the sort of thing I enjoy. I'll do it. He takes only his dog and enters the forbidden place.

The Theft of the Dog and the Draining of the Pond

When the young hunter reaches a pond in the forest, a hand emerges from the water and drags his dog down. The hunter does not panic. He recognizes: this must be the place. He returns to the castle, recruits three buckets and two men, and begins the long work of emptying the pond—a task Bly says might take years in the fairy story's compressed time.

Why a pond? Why drain it? Water in fairy tales holds the unconscious, the instinctual, the repressed. The hand grabbing the dog represents a force that will not let us keep our domesticated selves intact. To meet what is in the water, the pond must be emptied. The work is slow, unglamorous, repetitive. This is not a single heroic deed but sustained labor—a model for any real psychological change.

When the pond is drained, they find at the bottom a large man entirely covered with rusty, reddish hair. This is the Wild Man. He is bound with ropes, brought back to the castle, and locked in an iron cage in the courtyard. The society names him Iron John. The people are relieved: he is contained, caged, controlled. He is not among us.

The Golden Ball and the Boy's First Refusals

The next section introduces an eight-year-old boy playing with a golden ball. Bly explains: the golden ball stands in the way for that wonderful unity that we had before we went to school, before male and female were split, before up and down were split, before we got ashamed of ourselves. Children throw the ball up and catch it. They are not yet fallen into fragmentation.

The ball rolls into Iron John's cage. The boy asks for it back. Iron John says yes—if you let me out of the cage. The boy does not answer. He runs away. This is what we have been taught our whole lives: do not let the wild man out. Do not release the instinct. Do not disturb the cage.

As Bly's time map advances, the boy returns, now around fifteen (still depicted as three days in the story). The same exchange occurs. Again he refuses, though now Bly notes he is already thinking practically: I'm buying a car and a house—how can I do this if I let the wild man out? Still, he offers no answer and leaves.

On the third return—the boy now around twenty-three in real time—something shifts. When Iron John says let me out of my cage, the boy responds not with refusal but with confession: even if I wanted to, I don't know where the key is. He has moved from automatic rejection to honest vulnerability. He admits he does not have the power he thought he had.

The Key Under the Mother's Pillow: Discovering Maternal Control

Iron John tells him: the key is under your mother's pillow. Bly pauses here to mark what he calls a profound moment in the story. The key to the wild man—to instinct, to authentic masculine energy—is held not by the father but by the mother. It lies under her pillow, in the soft, warm place where she makes love with her husband. Bly invokes Freud's insight: this is where the mother has kept control.

Raising the boy to be a nice boy, to be obedient and polite, is equivalent to keeping the key to the wild man buried in maternal softness. The mother's protection becomes a prison. The boy's job—the initiate's job—is to steal the key. Bly quotes Jo Tonelli: always steal the key on the day your parents are gone. This is not moralism; it is psychology. Separation requires a kind of theft.

The boy waits for his parents to leave. He goes to his mother's bed, retrieves the key, and brings it to the cage. When he opens the iron lock, something unexpected happens: he got a wound on his finger. Maybe he had been with his mother so much he did not realize how hard the iron was. Maybe the cage had not been opened in so long. He receives an injury—a mark, a scar—in the act of stealing the key to the wild man.

This wound is crucial. Initiation is not painless. To leave the mother, to unlock the instinctual, to move into manhood, requires a wound. The wound shows that something real has happened, that there is a cost. The boy is marked.

The Taking Away: Separation from Both Parents

The wild man emerges from the cage and begins walking back toward the forest. The boy does something remarkable: he speaks a second time to Iron John. If my parents come home and you are out of your cage, they will beat me. He invokes the violence of parental punishment—and Bly notes that if you have read histories of child-rearing in nineteenth-century Germany, you know what such beating meant.

The wild man hears this and nods: that's good thinking. You're right. He recognizes the boy's clarity and his courage. So he places the boy on his shoulder and carries him off into the forest. That's the end of the first section.

Bly now makes explicit what the story enacts: what you just saw is a group of male initiators taking off the young boy. What you just saw is a clean break with the mother. In ancient initiation ceremonies—still performed in some cultures—boys are taken from their mothers between ages eight and twelve. They do not see their mothers for a year and a half or more. A clean break. A real separation.

For most modern men, Bly says, this has not happened. Some men get lucky and find a strong male mentor who helps them move away from both father and mother. But for most, there is only the endless refrigerator greeting: Hi Mom, how are you? The cord is never cut. The separation never occurs. The boy remains the boy.

The Holy Spring and the Guard at the Gate

In the second section, the wild man takes the boy to his place in the forest. Bly connects this to deep cultural memory: if you were your great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, you would know this very well—there's a spring at the center of the forest, a holy spring, guarded by the wild man, sometimes by the wild man and the wild woman together. He relates this to the Irish holy springs, suggesting an ancient European memory of sacred waters in the wilderness, protected by forces that are not civilized.

The wild man brings the boy to the edge of the holy spring. Inside it are golden snakes and golden fish—creatures of value and danger mixed together. He gives the boy a task: I want you to guard this pond and not let anything fall in. Can you do that? The boy agrees: oh yes, I'm good at it. The wild man says: I'm going away. Don't let anything fall in the pond or touch the water.

What is this task? It is the boy's first real work in the wild. It is also a test of consciousness and attention. He must stay awake. He must watch. He must not let the precious thing—the golden, the holy—be contaminated by the careless or the mundane.

The boy does well in the morning. But by midafternoon, Bly notes, consciousness gets a little loose. And his finger—the wounded finger—begins to hurt. Automatically, mechanically, the story says, he leans over the water. His finger touches the surface, and everything changes.

The Wound and the Descent Into Gold

What happens when the boy's wounded finger touches the holy water? The story does not explain it directly in this excerpt, but Bly's teaching sets the stage: the wound opens. The water reacts. The boy will be pulled into a new phase of initiation, one involving surrender, descent, and transformation. The golden light reflects in the water. The boy is drawn toward it. His attempt to keep things pure, to maintain control of the holy place, is about to be shattered.

Bly emphasizes that this moment marks the difference between masculine energy that is rigid, defended, and controlling—the boy trying to keep the spring pristine—and masculine energy that is surrendered, vulnerable, and willing to be wounded further. The descent is coming. The real work of initiation, below the surface, is about to begin.

Why Initiation Matters: The Missing Father and the Unmothered Boy

Bly returns to larger themes. Why does this story matter now? Because most modern men have not been initiated. They have not had the experience of being taken from the mother by a group of male elders. They have not had an older man say: you will never see your mother again—even if that is not literally true, the feeling matters. It establishes that you belong to a male world now, not to maternal protection.

The story also reveals what happens when a boy is wounded by his father—either by absence, by harshness, or by the father's own woundedness. Bly speaks to men who say: I'm still a puer—still a boy, still eighty years old and acting like a ten-year-old. This often involves being ignored by your father, being wounded by the father. But it also involves never being taken away from the mother, never being initiated by men.

The opposite error is forcing women to live with wounded, uninitialized men—men who have not done their own work, who have not descended into gold, who are still pulling at the maternal cord while also demanding that their partners be their mothers. Bly notes: when we force these women to live with these men, they get exhausted. The man has never had his own initiation, so he cannot give his partner the gift of a truly adult love.

The Work of Eldership: Teaching Dignity in Wounding

Another theme Bly develops: the role of the older male in teaching the younger man not just to feel his wounding but to understand his father's wounding. I feel the dignity of my father's pain, Bly says, is a mark of initiation. The boy learns that his father was also wounded, also imperfect, also damaged by forces larger than himself. This is not an excuse for the father's failures. It is a context. It allows the boy to move from rage or resentment into something deeper: my father wounded me and I got wounded, and I have accepted this.

This acceptance is not passivity. It is the recognition that wounding is part of the human condition, that it comes from both parents, that the work is not to blame but to integrate, to understand the lineage of damage, and to refuse to pass it on exactly as you received it.

Where to Go From Here

Robert Bly's telling of Iron John is not a self-help lecture. It is an initiation text. The story maps what needs to happen in a man's life: separation from the mother, encounter with the wild instinctual self, theft of the key to that wildness, wounding in the act of liberation, descent into the holy place, and the slow work of becoming a man who can hold both dignity and humility, both strength and vulnerability.

If you are a man who has not had this passage, the story invites you to recognize what is missing and to seek it—not in a single event but as an ongoing practice. Find older men who have done this work. Seek initiation. Allow yourself to be wounded. Guard the holy things. Let your finger touch the gold.

If you are a woman, the story teaches you why the men in your life may be arrested, why they may cling to you as a mother even as they rage against you, why the work of initiation is not your job but theirs—and why supporting that work, without doing it for them, is an act of love.

The Iron John story, as Bly tells it, is a map of the masculine soul's journey. It does not promise transformation or enlightenment. It promises only what initiation has always promised: a wound, a crossing, a return—and the slow development of a man who knows both his own depths and his place in a community of other men.

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Transcript

[0:07] we are leaving our time

[0:11] now we're leaving our time

[0:17] now we are going to a time that's slower

[0:20] than

[0:20] ours or faster than

[0:23] ours it's upon our time or below our

[0:27] time or in our time

[0:30] around our

[0:38] time and we honor space Also we honor

[0:41] the four directions

[0:44] east

[0:45] west north

[0:49] south and we honor the fifth Direction

[0:53] which is inside

[0:55] us inside our bodies tonight

[1:02] once upon a

[1:03] [Music]

[1:06] time once upon a time there's a king and

[1:08] the

[1:10] Queen and they lived in a

[1:15] castle but near the castle there was a

[1:18] forest in the old days there was always

[1:20] a force near the

[1:21] [Music]

[1:23] castle but this was a little unusual in

[1:26] that whoever went into that Forest never

[1:29] came back

[1:32] 30 Hunters went out one day and they

[1:33] didn't come

[1:37] back later about 25 Hunters went they

[1:40] didn't come

[1:42] back about 40 Hunters were sent after

[1:44] them and they didn't come back

[1:49] either so what happened was they simply

[1:51] let that part of the force

[1:56] be lots of other for

[2:01] no one entered that one anymore and this

[2:03] went on for a long time no one entered

[2:06] that Forest

[2:08] anymore only occasionally a hawk or an

[2:11] eagle flew over it only occasionally a

[2:15] hawk or an eagle flew over it so that

[2:19] was a situation remained that way a long

[2:21] time and one day something

[2:24] changed a young Hunter came and he

[2:27] said is there anything around here that

[2:30] when we shouldn't

[2:35] do king said yes there is but I uh it's

[2:39] a little journey but the return rate is

[2:41] not very

[2:44] good I don't advise it he said that's

[2:47] the sort of thing that I enjoy I'll do

[2:50] it so he went out into the forest and he

[2:52] took with him only his

[2:54] dog he went to loone that

[2:58] one course that's different than

[3:00] watching a desert this is entering a

[3:07] forest so he went into the forest and

[3:09] when he' got in a

[3:11] while they passed a pond and a hand came

[3:15] up out of the pond and grabbed the dog

[3:17] and pulled him

[3:21] down so the young Hunter didn't go all

[3:24] hysterical he said this must be the

[3:27] place

[3:34] and then he went back to the castle and

[3:36] he got three buckets and two other men

[3:38] and they began to bucket out that

[3:43] pond that is slow

[3:47] work this part of the story might take

[3:49] you through

[3:51] years they bucketed out the pond and

[3:54] when they bucketed it out they found on

[3:56] the bottom a large man entirely covered

[4:00] with hair that was Rusty

[4:03] colored reddish Rusty colored lying in

[4:06] the

[4:10] bottom well we don't like that sort of

[4:17] person so they took the wild man and

[4:20] they bound him with ropes and they

[4:22] brought him back to the castle and they

[4:24] put him in an iron cage in the courtyard

[4:30] and they called him my own John that was

[4:33] pretty

[4:37] goodan prefers to have him in Arabia or

[4:45] somewhere so now we come to the next

[4:47] part of the

[4:49] story it turns out there's an eighty old

[4:51] boy in that

[4:54] castle one day the 8-year-old boy was

[4:56] playing with his Golden Ball

[5:01] the Golden Ball stands in the way for

[5:03] that wonderful Unity that we had before

[5:05] we went to

[5:07] school before male and female were split

[5:11] before up and down were

[5:13] split before we got ashamed of

[5:18] ourselves and these my children think

[5:21] they'll never lose that ball you know

[5:23] they throw it up in the air and catch it

[5:25] remember the girl playing by the Frog

[5:28] Pond and the Frog came

[5:32] this ball rolled into the wild man's

[5:34] cage and the boy said could I have my

[5:37] golden ball back

[5:41] please wild man said yes if you let me

[5:44] out of my

[5:47] cage what did the boy

[5:50] say he didn't even answer he ran

[5:53] away when we told all our lives do not

[5:56] let the Wild Man Out Of The Cage

[6:02] so that went on quite a

[6:04] while a day in a fairy story is like 5

[6:07] years maybe

[6:10] 10 so the boy came back in our time he

[6:15] might be 23 now and he says to the wild

[6:18] man can I have my golden ball

[6:24] back wild man said yes if you let me out

[6:27] of the cage

[6:32] he's already buying a car in a

[6:36] house how can he do it no way no way no

[6:41] way doesn't even answer but the grief on

[6:45] the male's face gets

[6:50] deeper finally on the third day in the

[6:53] fairy

[6:54] story The Boy Goes to the wild man and

[6:57] says could I have my golden ball back

[7:00] the wild man says yes if you let me out

[7:02] of my

[7:07] cage wonderful thing

[7:10] happens the boy says to the wild man

[7:13] even if I wanted to let you out of the

[7:15] cage I don't know where the key

[7:18] is I don't know where the key

[7:24] is I said in the beginning of the story

[7:27] you know that when the king locked him

[7:28] up in the courtyard he gave the key into

[7:29] the the keeping of the

[7:31] queen but where is it castles are

[7:38] big sometimes I've asked an audience

[7:40] where is the key and they say it's Sur

[7:41] around the boy's

[7:42] neck it's in the Golden

[7:44] Ball it's on the floor of the cave a

[7:48] cage it's in the

[7:54] kitchen well and photograph alum

[8:04] so the wild man

[8:06] said the key is under your mother's

[8:13] pillow that's where Freud said it

[8:21] was it's under your mother's

[8:25] pillow in that soft warm place there

[8:33] near where she makes love with her

[8:37] husband so possibly there's a little Ed

[8:39] belonging

[8:42] there also your mother raed you to be a

[8:44] nice

[8:46] boy that's the same thing is saying the

[8:48] key to the wild man is under your

[8:50] mother's

[8:57] pillow what did he do he waited one day

[8:59] till his parents were gone that's what

[9:00] Jo tonelli says always steal the key on

[9:03] the day your parents are gone sometimes

[9:04] they're

[9:07] gone so he took the key and he brought

[9:10] it over to the cage and he opened it but

[9:14] you know a funny thing happened don't

[9:16] know how it

[9:17] happened but he got a wound on his

[9:19] finger that

[9:22] day maybe he'd been with his mother so

[9:24] much he didn't realize how hard iron

[9:28] it or May maybe it hadn't been open for

[9:32] a

[9:32] while he got a little wound on his

[9:35] finger that you're going to notice in

[9:37] the next part of the

[9:40] story and the wild man walked out and

[9:43] started going away back to his forest

[9:46] and the boy did something wonderful

[9:48] again he spoke a second time to the wild

[9:51] man and he said wait if my parents come

[9:55] home and you are out of your cage they

[9:58] will beat me

[10:05] and if you read histories of child

[10:07] wearing in Germany in the 19th century

[10:08] you know what he

[10:11] means if the wild man is out of the cage

[10:14] when my parents come home they will beat

[10:19] me wild man said that's good

[10:22] thinking you're right about

[10:26] that so I think I better take you with

[10:28] me and he put him up on his shoulder and

[10:31] take him off to the

[10:33] force and that's the end of the first

[10:36] section of the

[10:38] story we'll talk about it a bit when I

[10:41] end the next

[10:42] section but what you just saw is a group

[10:45] of male initiators taking off the young

[10:50] boy what you just saw is a clean break

[10:52] with the mother

[10:55] clean which is what was required in all

[10:57] ancient initiation ceremonies say

[10:59] performed at this day in places like new

[11:02] begin boy's left with his mother until

[11:04] he's between 8 and 12 then men come in

[11:06] with spes one night and take

[11:09] him and he doesn't S among the hes he

[11:11] doesn't see his mother for a year and a

[11:13] half to this

[11:21] day but which one of us has had luck

[11:33] nobody some

[11:36] do some will get a strong male

[11:39] Mentor will help them move away from

[11:41] both the father and the

[11:43] mother but for most of us it's just a

[11:45] refrigerator

[11:48] forever hi Mom how are

[11:53] you are you ready to go on to the second

[11:55] part

[11:58] now well

[12:00] they went to the wild man's place in the

[12:03] forest and you must know if you were

[12:06] your great great great great great great

[12:08] great grandfather you know this very

[12:09] well and your great great great great

[12:11] great great great great

[12:12] grandmother all through the Middle Ages

[12:15] they knew very well that there's a

[12:17] spring at the center of the

[12:20] forest a holy spring guarded by the wild

[12:24] man sometimes by the wild man and the

[12:26] wild woman

[12:28] together so related to the Irish holy

[12:31] [Music]

[12:34] Springs so the man took him

[12:36] there when they get up in the morning he

[12:39] said no I want you to understand you'll

[12:41] never see your father and mother

[12:44] again turned out not to be true in this

[12:47] case but it's important that you leave

[12:49] that feeling anyway you'll never see

[12:52] your father and your mother

[12:53] [Music]

[12:55] again but don't worry

[13:00] I will take care of

[13:02] you then he brought him over to the edge

[13:04] of the Holy spring and in it there was a

[13:06] golden snakes and golden

[13:10] fish and he said I want you to guard

[13:13] this Pond and not let anything fall in

[13:15] can you do

[13:16] that oh yes I'm good

[13:20] it I'm going away don't let anything

[13:22] fall in the pond or touch the water oh I

[13:25] won't I

[13:28] won't well what do you happened he sat

[13:31] by the pond and he did pretty well in

[13:33] the

[13:35] morning but you know about 2:00 our

[13:37] Consciousness gets a little

[13:39] L and his finger hurt you remember the

[13:44] finger and the story says

[13:47] automatically mechanically it says

[13:50] without

[13:51] thinking he put his finger into the

[13:53] water and suddenly the tip of it turned

[13:56] gold tip of it turned gold and he pulled

[13:58] it out

[14:01] when the wild man came home he said to

[14:03] him you let something fall into the

[14:05] water I've held it this afternoon about

[14:08] 3:00 let's see

[14:16] it don't do it

[14:19] again

[14:21] tomorrow oh I won't I

[14:26] won't so the wild man goes off again and

[14:28] leaves him there by the pond and says do

[14:30] not let anything fall into this

[14:33] water he's not going to do

[14:36] it thinks about his finger going to keep

[14:38] that finger out of

[14:40] [Music]

[14:42] there and his alertness stays until

[14:45] maybe

[14:46] [Music]

[14:48] 230 and you know it's such a simple

[14:51] thing to do I mean your finger hurts a

[14:52] little so what do you do you run it

[14:55] through your

[14:56] hair isn't that right

[14:59] went it through your hair like this he

[15:01] did that and a single hair fell down

[15:04] into the pond and turned gold boom he

[15:06] pulled it out too late it was all gold

[15:08] one hair was

[15:14] gold when the wild man he came home he

[15:16] said I felt something about 3:00 this

[15:19] afternoon go into the pond let's see

[15:24] it now

[15:26] listen one more time

[15:29] you understand each of these could take

[15:31] 5 10 years these little

[15:35] stages one more

[15:37] [Music]

[15:39] time this this this day is so

[15:43] beautiful

[15:45] incredible so he's determined now so he

[15:49] keeps his

[15:51] hand behind his

[15:53] back all

[15:55] day he stands by the pond looking

[16:01] and then maybe it was three or 4 I don't

[16:03] know

[16:05] when he was standing like this and he

[16:07] looked down and he saw his own face in

[16:08] the

[16:13] water that's kind of a wonderful

[16:16] moment was so used to looking at other

[16:18] people's

[16:20] faces he looked down he saw his own face

[16:23] in the water and then what he did was he

[16:26] land over more and more you know why

[16:29] because because he wanted to look into

[16:30] his own

[16:34] eyes looking into other people's eyes is

[16:36] wonderful it last you about 34

[16:40] years then eventually you want to look

[16:43] into your own

[16:45] eyes and so he leaned over farther and

[16:48] farther so that he could look into his

[16:51] own eyes and when he was down just like

[16:54] this all the hair fell down over his

[16:56] shoulders into the water and the whole

[16:57] head of hair turned go

[17:00] woo his whole head of hair turned gold

[17:04] and what he did was he bounded in a

[17:06] bandana immediately and tied it

[17:09] up he bound it in a bandana and he tied

[17:12] it

[17:13] up and when the wild man came home he

[17:20] [Music]

[17:22] said you let something fall into the

[17:24] water what's that weird bandana around

[17:26] your head

[17:32] wild man said keep the bandana

[17:36] on but you'll have to leave

[17:40] now you'll have to leave

[17:43] now you'll have to leave me

[17:47] now now you're seeing the

[17:49] initiator letting the student go not

[17:53] holding them the way so many of the

[17:55] gurus

[17:56] do letting him go

[18:01] that's

[18:03] important and he says to the

[18:06] boy I'm sending you out into the

[18:09] world because now you know a lot about

[18:11] gold but you know nothing about

[18:15] poverty beautiful huh you know a lot

[18:18] about gold now everybody in the United

[18:21] States now loads a lot about gold they

[18:23] all read the Tibetan Book of the

[18:25] Dead R May

[18:28] Caston everybody knows a lot about gold

[18:31] but he said you don't know anything

[18:32] about

[18:37] poverty that's outward poverty I think

[18:40] and inward

[18:41] too how can you possibly believe that

[18:44] you're poor inwardly when you got all

[18:45] those books in your

[18:49] bookshelf you know a lot about gold but

[18:52] you don't know anything about

[18:54] poverty so I'm sending you out now but

[18:57] don't worry

[19:00] I have more gold and silver than you

[19:01] will ever

[19:02] need and whenever you want me come to

[19:06] the edge of the forest and call I on

[19:07] John ion John I on John three times and

[19:10] I'll

[19:10] [Music]

[19:12] come so that's the end of that part of

[19:14] the story there are five parts of this

[19:17] story this is the second part maybe 6

[19:21] months from now I'll come and tell you

[19:22] the third

[19:23] part we'll talk about it if you want to

[19:26] read the whole story you'll find it in

[19:28] Grim Brothers under the title iron

[19:31] hunts or you could just let it be a

[19:34] [Music]

[19:37] surprise now that's the end of the

[19:39] second part of the story so I think we

[19:41] landed here with apologies to the

[19:46] story stories don't like to be broken

[19:48] off in the middle you

[19:51] know in the old days they would start at

[19:53] 8 9:00 in the morning they still do it

[19:56] in Persian

[19:57] Arabia and The Story Goes on it finishes

[19:59] about 10 and then it says oh and then

[20:01] the grandmother came in and she said

[20:03] this oh my God it starts over again goes

[20:06] on and another story starts at two it

[20:07] goes on all

[20:10] day but we all got things to

[20:14] do all

[20:15] [Music]

[20:23] right so I don't think we'll go in much

[20:26] into the first half I gave you a few

[20:28] hints of the way I look at that first

[20:32] half that first

[20:37] section and I think

[20:40] [Music]

[20:42] um the most important detail I think in

[20:45] it is stealing the key from under the

[20:47] mother's pillow isn't

[20:50] it how to do that what does that

[20:53] mean I told the men this week that I I I

[20:57] gave this story once out in Whitby

[20:58] Island near Seattle and uh there's about

[21:03] 700 people there and there's a young man

[21:04] sitting over here and he spoke up at

[21:06] this point he said Robert

[21:08] um do you think it's necessary to steal

[21:11] it I mean don't you think that we could

[21:13] make some kind of Cooperative

[21:15] arrangement with the mother sort of go

[21:18] and say you know

[21:20] Mom that's way they the people primitive

[21:22] people do it you know they don't don't

[21:24] they never do anything they always have

[21:26] endless meetings of the commune you know

[21:30] so he said that he said don't you think

[21:32] why do we have to steal it couldn't we

[21:34] just make an arrangement and I saw the

[21:36] souls of every woman in that room lift

[21:38] up out of her chair and go over and try

[21:39] to kill

[21:41] him he could feel the

[21:45] movement cuz a man like that is very

[21:47] dangerous to

[21:50] women and um and it was late in the

[21:53] afternoon and I was out of my mind

[21:55] anyway and and so I was uh you know you

[21:58] finally can't answer questions and I

[22:00] said go ahead live off women the rest of

[22:02] your life if you want to do it I noticed

[22:05] he looked a little

[22:07] pale and then someone told me later the

[22:10] woman sitting next to him he had been

[22:11] living off the last four

[22:15] years so living off women is the same

[22:18] thing is not stealing the key isn't it

[22:20] he going to transfer it

[22:23] over

[22:24] so things like this cut pretty deep

[22:30] well

[22:32] so and then the gorgeous detail of being

[22:34] carried off by the boy carried off by

[22:36] the wild man isn't that lovely lovely

[22:39] you're also seeing the priest of

[22:40] dionisius take a young boy the priest of

[22:43] Apollo in Greek times when you wanted to

[22:46] grow in a certain way there were there

[22:47] were six seven or eight fully developed

[22:50] males they were called Greek gods but

[22:53] they were models of the male psyche

[22:55] fully developed and you had an instinct

[22:58] as to which one was one for you and they

[23:01] would have their priest and you would go

[23:02] with

[23:03] them sometimes you might go with the

[23:04] dionis for a while and then after 8 nine

[23:06] years you might go with Apollo and the

[23:09] women

[23:10] also women might go with aidite it was

[23:13] dangerous to stay with aphid very long

[23:16] they might move over to Athena then

[23:18] which is a which is a a goddess of

[23:20] tremendous

[23:23] Consciousness and if a woman wasn't with

[23:25] damer in heavy Earth stuff in the

[23:27] beginning she might move up to

[23:30] so that's the way they live that's not

[23:32] the way we live we just stagger from one

[23:34] McDonald's to the

[23:45] next so um let's go on to the second

[23:49] part of the story

[23:50] now this uh situation which he brings

[23:53] the boy to the Pod and leaves him there

[23:55] and says don't let anything fall in the

[23:57] water

[23:59] and

[24:01] um why is there a wound and why is the

[24:03] wound in the

[24:07] finger well I remember telling this

[24:09] story and I said uh to the audience why

[24:11] is there a wound here and the woman said

[24:14] um whenever you're doing something

[24:17] serious and important there's always a

[24:19] wound

[24:20] involved you can't escape out of your

[24:22] old habits without a wound you hear what

[24:24] you're

[24:24] saying it's going to be a wound whatever

[24:28] you do that's movement there's going to

[24:29] be a

[24:30] wound

[24:32] so

[24:33] um so I think that's

[24:37] right

[24:39] so what is the

[24:42] wound well as I mentioned releasing the

[24:44] wild man is really the same thing as

[24:46] stopping be a mother's

[24:48] boy and you have to give up that

[24:50] admiration you got from your

[24:53] mother the male ego is very weak really

[24:55] in many ways and it loves that

[24:58] admiration from the mother oh you're the

[24:59] best you a wonderful your father's a

[25:02] creep but you're

[25:08] wonderful we're addicted to

[25:12] that so he's not going to get that now

[25:15] from the wild man do you feel it he not

[25:17] going to get that sort of

[25:20] adoration so there's a wound there in

[25:22] doing that and then you know there's

[25:25] very strange things involved for example

[25:28] Achilles

[25:29] was wounded exactly in the place his

[25:31] mother held him when he she dipped him

[25:34] in to become immortal she was holding

[25:36] him by one tendon and one leg and she

[25:38] dipped him in and that's the only place

[25:40] that didn't touch and that's where they

[25:42] later killed

[25:43] him can you feel the connection there

[25:46] that's called the Achilles tendon to

[25:47] this day so our mothers wanted to make

[25:50] us

[25:52] Immortal it didn't work

[25:56] though so

[25:59] so leaving a a mother's force field

[26:02] isn't

[26:03] easy and there's a lot of pain in in not

[26:08] breaking with the

[26:10] mother and especially when she says I'll

[26:13] make you sort of invincible if you will

[26:15] be my little

[26:18] man and I think it was um R May said

[26:22] something interesting about this he said

[26:24] in terms of the edible situation that

[26:26] Freud talked about which everyone fought

[26:28] for the the mother and the father won

[26:32] and put down the boy and wounded him Etc

[26:34] Al May said the today's problem is the

[26:36] son wins the mother from his passive or

[26:39] absent father and then he doesn't know

[26:40] what to do with

[26:44] it how do you like that

[26:46] one that's what happens in every single

[26:49] household run by a mother a single

[26:51] mother the boy effectively wins the

[26:54] mother from the absent

[26:57] father and then I I can guarantee you he

[26:59] does not want

[27:01] her because in the boy there's

[27:03] tremendous sexual attraction between the

[27:05] the Son and the mother immediately even

[27:07] in the Cradle because they're opposite

[27:09] Sexes you understand that how that goes

[27:12] often times the boy has an tion while

[27:14] the mother is changing the diapers early

[27:16] on she pretends not to notice that too

[27:19] much but it's

[27:21] there and uh so and sometimes the mother

[27:24] will actually come have an orgasm while

[27:26] she's nursing the boy or the girl

[27:29] so that's pretty heavy stuff don't you

[27:31] think

[27:32] so and I say to the man it was rather

[27:34] forward of you you weren't even even you

[27:37] know sort of distant with you mother you

[27:38] Su her

[27:39] breasts that was pretty heavy stuff you

[27:43] did there we don't forget it

[27:47] either

[27:49] never

[27:52] so so

[27:56] um but then what what happens then if it

[27:58] violates the whole 4an idea and you

[28:00] actually win your mother and there's

[28:01] only you and the mother in the house and

[28:02] your father's off somewhere and She's

[28:04] continually telling you anyway the

[28:05] father's no good so there's much more

[28:07] responsibility you'll get back

[28:09] again then the boy doesn't know what to

[28:12] do my own opinion is that the situation

[28:15] we have in the United States now in

[28:16] which young males in high school are

[28:18] getting uglier and uglier when they come

[28:20] into the

[28:23] kitchen and this is an ugliness put on

[28:25] the body so they won't appear so

[28:27] attractive to their mothers

[28:30] and they'll talk ugly too talk ugly to

[28:33] the mother and some other say he's so

[28:36] cute when he

[28:38] doesn't what do you think he

[28:41] does he doesn't know what to do because

[28:43] it's all unconscious anyway it's not in

[28:45] Consciousness he doesn't know why he's

[28:47] talking

[28:49] ugly

[28:51] H the mother doesn't know why these

[28:53] things are continuing in this

[28:56] way okay

[28:58] anyway let's return to our story this is

[29:00] not going to happen to this boy with the

[29:03] help of initiated males in this case

[29:04] represented by the wild man he escapes

[29:07] from the edible trap and he abcon with

[29:09] the key and he says to L

[29:11] adios it's a good clean

[29:14] break so the boy succeeds in passing

[29:16] through a process that's uh really

[29:18] interrupted

[29:20] now many young men now have no contact

[29:23] with their fathers nor with any older

[29:25] male

[29:28] the police chief I think of Detroit I

[29:30] read a little note of his a couple years

[29:32] ago he said these young boys that I'm

[29:34] picking up most of those not only don't

[29:38] have a responsible male in the house

[29:40] they have never met

[29:43] one how do you like

[29:45] that they have never met

[29:49] one and males are a little different

[29:52] than women in many ways but one way I

[29:55] think though I can't speak firmly on on

[29:58] it is that it seems that girls go up

[30:01] into women by certain natural processes

[30:04] that go on in their bodies but a boy

[30:06] doesn't become a man without a

[30:08] model that's a very depressing

[30:11] idea needs needs a

[30:15] model

[30:16] well all right so let's continue then

[30:21] we're going to still talk about this

[30:22] wound

[30:30] according to all initi initiator people

[30:34] like M

[30:37] aladi the first stage of initiation is

[30:39] always a separation from the parents and

[30:41] a withdrawal into the woods and the

[30:43] second St some pain is or wound is

[30:46] always connected with

[30:47] that sometimes it's heavy

[30:49] tattooing sometimes it's scarifying the

[30:52] face sometimes it's removal of a

[30:55] tooth for example among the Australian

[30:58] AB

[30:59] it goes like this they get the young

[31:00] boys lined up and then they start to

[31:03] talk to him

[31:05] about is the great early man the first

[31:08] early man and the boys are wow they you

[31:10] see the old males don't allow the boys

[31:12] to hear anything of this while they're

[31:13] with their mothers only when they're out

[31:15] of the mother's house will they tell

[31:16] them the major stories so they tell him

[31:19] about D and they say he's up there in

[31:21] the tree there is Dara and they all

[31:23] looking at the tree and and the shaman

[31:24] comes along and knocks out one of their

[31:25] tooth with a hammer

[31:30] so that's pain but on the other hand

[31:33] that's what happened to

[31:37] DH you now have a connection with

[31:40] daa wouldn't you give a tooth to have a

[31:43] connection with

[31:46] daa that's the way it

[31:48] goes that that always the initiation has

[31:53] this pain and it is not done in

[31:56] cruelty it's done from the knowledge

[31:58] that Dara grew to be the man he was and

[32:02] the human he was because he endured pain

[32:04] in this case the loss of the Tob and by

[32:06] this method they're put in touch there

[32:08] so the males on the whole don't Comfort

[32:10] the boys either that's another

[32:12] difference between male and female

[32:14] Behavior often times the woman often

[32:16] moves towards the wound to heal it and

[32:19] that's right on her part because when

[32:20] there's pain in a little child you have

[32:23] to move towards it you don't know what

[32:24] it means you have to move towards that

[32:27] wound and that pain and ask about it but

[32:30] um the old initiators especially in New

[32:32] Guinea treat the boys exactly the

[32:33] opposite they give them a good wound and

[32:36] then the next morning they say we'll see

[32:37] at 10:00 out in the woods certain place

[32:40] boys go your men don't turn

[32:43] up 11:00 they came in

[32:46] laughing and apparently no one knows

[32:48] what's going on there there's never any

[32:49] explanation of these cuz these are done

[32:51] without talk but I the only explanation

[32:54] I have for that is this feeling that

[32:56] that if our mother makes makes an

[32:58] arrangement to be with us at 10:00 in

[32:59] the wood she you eyes but I'm I'm

[33:02] telling you the world is not your

[33:04] mother and you better get it through

[33:06] your head right

[33:09] now you feel that

[33:12] one all

[33:15] right so in a way the boy's wounded

[33:17] finger then represents what would have

[33:19] been an initiation right a much deeper

[33:22] wound and uh this this is going to

[33:25] appear as an interview that Keith

[33:26] Thompson and I worked over the last two

[33:27] or three years on this section and Keith

[33:29] at this point said in the interview

[33:31] eliotti says no passage without blood no

[33:33] growth without pain from demons no

[33:35] chains without injury or wound but the

[33:38] ceremonial wounding isn't an end in

[33:40] itself and if we make the wound literal

[33:42] and physical it symbolizes the wounds a

[33:45] man feels in relation to his life as a

[33:48] whole

[33:50] well um so why should the wound be in

[33:53] the

[33:55] finger well James Hillman is brilliant

[33:58] on this point he's the most brilliant

[34:00] psychologist in the United States now

[34:02] he's living in Connecticut and he has I

[34:04] mean you're laughing but I always say if

[34:07] you give a recommendation why go why not

[34:08] go all the way why fool around

[34:13] so and Hilman is the second generation

[34:16] of the yans he and Marie Louise V France

[34:18] are both Geniuses they're the second

[34:19] generation of the yian

[34:21] people hman has written a lot about this

[34:24] he describes how the young male in our

[34:26] culture partly because of the lack of

[34:28] initiation from the older males often

[34:30] times becomes a flying

[34:32] boy he starts to fly and Ascend

[34:35] ascending is his thing he goes into

[34:38] ashrams

[34:39] flies he doesn't commit himself to a

[34:43] marriage or a job but he's a flyer you

[34:46] understand what I mean do you feel this

[34:48] this flying boy and there's about a

[34:51] third to a to half of the males in the

[34:53] country are flying boys

[34:55] know Peter Pan is an example perfect one

[34:58] for that uh what is that other one

[35:00] called the

[35:02] um remember St exupery The Little Prince

[35:06] he was terrified of a snake under the

[35:08] ground snakes are under the ground these

[35:10] these people don't like that ground in

[35:12] that underground there's almost women in

[35:13] it underneath it so if you have an

[35:16] affair with a woman uh you leave her as

[35:18] soon as you can within 3 months

[35:21] H and so there's a lot of wounding going

[35:24] on from these young males are not only

[35:28] negative this is a a spiritual energy

[35:30] the young males have can I put it in

[35:32] another way there's a spiritual energy

[35:35] that the young males have now that

[35:38] energy is supposed to have been lived by

[35:39] the old men of the

[35:41] culture then the young boys would have

[35:43] been free to commit themselves or do

[35:45] whatever they wanted but the old males

[35:46] are not living it in our culture the old

[35:49] males are refusing to live the spirit

[35:52] the result is that the young males have

[35:54] to live it it's like it's got to be

[35:55] lived and that thing in uh Australia

[35:58] those old males are living the spirit

[36:00] every day what does it say with the

[36:01] Australian aborigin something like 62%

[36:03] of his time is taken up with

[36:05] mythology and that means he's dealing

[36:07] with the old Spirit material all the

[36:09] time that leaves the young men free to

[36:11] do as they do but not in our culture

[36:13] because we're forcing the young men to

[36:15] be spiritual in that way and to ascend

[36:16] and fly not all of them of course some

[36:18] of them uh don't do it there are two

[36:20] kinds of males there's the plots and

[36:22] there's the

[36:23] Flyers and this is primarily about the

[36:26] plotter I mean the flyer here so why is

[36:28] it that the finger of the foot Hillman

[36:30] has mentioned that in these men given to

[36:32] spiritual soar often times the wound

[36:34] appears on the finger or the foot at one

[36:37] of the extremities because he is far

[36:41] out do you know that phrase far out

[36:44] that's the phrase by this soaring male

[36:47] far out man far out and that's where he

[36:50] is he's not living in the center here

[36:53] he's living out here out here is where

[36:56] he's living

[36:58] and I was a puer completely for 35 years

[37:02] I'm still a puer one's a puer that's

[37:03] called a puer IIs of the flying boy once

[37:06] a flying boy always a flying boy but

[37:09] still you get a little closer to your

[37:11] Center but uh just a few years ago I was

[37:13] acting very flighty one day and I took

[37:15] her I took a um a circular saw at my

[37:19] cabin and almost saw it right through

[37:21] the end of one of my

[37:22] fingers soon as I did it I knew exactly

[37:25] what had

[37:26] happened another friend Terry went to uh

[37:30] he was in aido school in Japan for 10

[37:32] years with a great aido master and then

[37:34] he made a sudden decision to marry a

[37:36] woman uh not knowing her very well and

[37:39] the next day he broke his finger so

[37:42] badly it's never gotten

[37:44] straight and uh phades had a wound in

[37:48] the foot edus you know what that means

[37:50] swollen

[37:52] foot so again this whole tradition of

[37:55] wounds in the young male in the finger

[37:57] or the foot

[37:58] go on all right let's keep going so

[38:02] therefore we're going to talk about the

[38:04] wound this wound in the finger then not

[38:07] only stands for the initiation wound

[38:09] that's given but it stands for all the

[38:11] wounds we have so I'm going to list a

[38:13] few wounds now I said to Keith give me a

[38:16] few

[38:17] wounds and he said something like this

[38:21] being ignored by your father monster

[38:23] wound does

[38:26] it being ignored by your father monster

[38:29] wound and I want you to feel how much

[38:31] more that how deeper that wound has been

[38:33] since the Industrial Revolution because

[38:36] in the industrial revolution the men

[38:37] were sent away from the

[38:39] house mothers and daughters still stayed

[38:41] in the house up until very recently but

[38:43] the males of the fathers were sent out

[38:45] and a lot of these males especially in

[38:47] area like New York where the long

[38:48] commuting come home they see their son

[38:50] 10 minutes a

[38:52] day we're genetically programmed to see

[38:55] our Our Father many hours a day

[38:58] and we could take it if it is if he

[39:00] would be with us 2 to three hours a day

[39:02] by 10 minutes we're not genetically

[39:03] programmed for that you understand what

[39:05] I'm saying before the Industrial

[39:06] Revolution we were with our father all

[39:08] the time in the day and through the

[39:10] seasons and occasionally you know You'

[39:12] get a little you know a little trouble

[39:15] would happen One Of You' kill the other

[39:16] but it wasn't

[39:18] serious the seriousness is in the

[39:21] remoteness that's what's

[39:24] serious

[39:26] so also um

[39:28] being doted on as a favored by your

[39:30] mother often involves wounding your

[39:32] father and he'll wound you

[39:35] back it's going to happen there's no

[39:37] question about

[39:40] it and when a man acts as if he's

[39:42] morally or spiritually Superior to his

[39:44] father that results in the wound they

[39:46] both

[39:50] feel the way that's put in a great

[39:53] African fairy story which we told there

[39:56] at the conference last

[39:59] week is that it's as if you're hunting

[40:02] with your father and he kills a

[40:05] rat but you want a

[40:08] gazelle you want big

[40:11] things your father's only

[40:13] machinist it's like having a rat so what

[40:17] you do is throw away the rat and you

[40:18] wait for the gazelle but the gazelle

[40:20] doesn't come and your father says to you

[40:22] where's the rat and you say I threw it

[40:25] away

[40:31] that happens to each of us when we

[40:32] refuse to go into our father's way uh uh

[40:35] life life and the way he

[40:38] lives my father was a

[40:40] farmer and in a way that was the rat

[40:43] that he

[40:45] caught and I

[40:50] said I didn't do

[40:53] wrong but I want you to feel the wound

[40:55] that's in him from that h

[41:01] so most of the males in this room have

[41:03] wounded their father in that

[41:05] way whether the father's a barber a

[41:08] businessman whatever always there's that

[41:10] longing that your son will do what you

[41:12] did and therefore sort of justify the

[41:14] sacrifices that you have made and the

[41:16] deprivation of your

[41:18] life and then the son says nope no

[41:22] wait then it says in the story your

[41:24] father gets enraged and he takes an

[41:26] action and hits you

[41:29] that doesn't happen visibly but it

[41:31] happens invisibly do you feel what we're

[41:33] talking about with this wound you cannot

[41:35] wound anyone without them wounding you

[41:36] back so I think that's a heavy wound we

[41:39] all suffer that wound it's a big wound

[41:42] accepting insults is another wound seist

[41:44] feminists go around saying all men are

[41:46] child molesters all men are rapists if

[41:48] you accept those insults you've taken a

[41:51] big wound in right here and I advise you

[41:54] not to do that

[41:59] thank you very

[42:08] much I met a man out west who came to a

[42:10] thing I said and he said you know he

[42:12] said I um I gave a little talk at San

[42:15] Francisco State it was in the Port

[42:16] Reading but I made a few remarks about

[42:18] men and he said I I disagree with what

[42:20] you're saying about

[42:21] men I'd like to talk to you about it I

[42:23] said okay fine when do you want to talk

[42:26] so we made an arrangement a couple days

[42:27] later for coffee I went and I met him

[42:29] and I said what do you object to he said

[42:31] um I object to you're talking about the

[42:33] wild man is too positive an

[42:35] image too positive I said what do you do

[42:38] he says I run the men's group in

[42:39] Berkeley and he says every man that we

[42:41] get in there first of all we make him

[42:43] agreed that he's responsible for every

[42:45] rape in the world and every violence

[42:47] done against

[42:49] women before we let him go on I said

[42:52] well um I asked him what his background

[42:56] was and and his background was in

[42:58] feminist

[43:01] groups so I said to him but uh there's a

[43:05] strange thing here because when women

[43:08] begin a group they do not begin by

[43:11] undermining the confidence of the

[43:15] woman they begin by supporting the

[43:19] woman if you're really following them

[43:21] how come you went so far off this time

[43:29] I said you got a lot of anger against

[43:30] your father don't you said you're a

[43:32] double agent aren

[43:36] you

[43:38] so so that most of the violence comes

[43:41] from men is there's a that's true that

[43:43] there are rapes is true all of that is

[43:45] true and that women are fighting in this

[43:47] country that's all true at the same time

[43:49] when you accept it as an insult all men

[43:51] are rapist that's a wound you're

[43:53] accepting yourself you're just taking it

[43:56] in and I think a a lot of young males

[43:59] have been wounded in that way in the

[44:00] last 15 years it's results in that loss

[44:03] of self-esteem which is what happens

[44:05] with every

[44:06] wound

[44:08] um when a young man goes to Vietnam

[44:10] because his country tells him to and he

[44:12] gets there and he finds out that

[44:13] everybody's been lying to him that's a

[44:16] wound that's a deep

[44:19] wound I feel a lot of compassion for the

[44:22] Vietnam

[44:23] veterans they believed I tell you here's

[44:26] a wound for example there a woman that I

[44:28] know I met this man in San Francisco and

[44:31] he was introduced to me as a Vietnam

[44:32] veteran and I said to him um how do you

[44:34] feel about that said I'm very

[44:37] angry I said what happened M said I'll

[44:40] tell you one one thing that happened

[44:41] says I'm a Catholic kid from

[44:44] Pennsylvania when I went in the Army I

[44:47] believed some of the things that the

[44:48] church had told me about human dignity

[44:51] and respectful women and we got over

[44:53] there and they said if it's got slanty

[44:54] forehead kill it everything's a goo kill

[44:56] it

[44:58] he said after we did that for 30 days

[45:00] violating all those things we felt about

[45:02] human dignity you know what they do the

[45:04] men the older men would send us to

[45:05] whouses in

[45:07] Thailand and he said I still had some

[45:10] feeling for

[45:12] women and he said I've lost that and I'm

[45:16] very angry about it it's not it's not

[45:18] coming back you feel it there's a wound

[45:21] for you done by those stupid older men

[45:24] who stayed in Saigon and thought that

[45:26] what young men wanted was was whouses in

[45:28] Thailand after they've been killed

[45:30] people

[45:32] so that's a wound not being able to

[45:35] enter the job force is another

[45:38] wound feeling yourself weaker than other

[45:41] men a monster wound you know that

[45:45] one so there's a very interesting thing

[45:47] when we had a mother conference this

[45:48] year we had men and women together it's

[45:50] called the conference in the great

[45:51] mother and I've been running it for 10

[45:53] years and then about 3 years ago the men

[45:54] and the women started to meet separately

[45:56] for a day or so some told this story a

[45:58] little bit I think it was David uh and

[46:00] so we met together this year out in

[46:02] California the men met together for a

[46:03] couple of days and the women met

[46:04] together for a couple days and we came

[46:05] back together and we all mixed again and

[46:07] it was lovely and then it was about the

[46:09] sixth day or so we were out on the beach

[46:11] so the men went by themselves uh off in

[46:13] the beach and talked about what had

[46:14] happened since the men's group BR com

[46:16] two things were very interesting first

[46:18] of all all the unity between the men had

[46:20] disappeared as soon as the women were

[46:23] there and and because the women the men

[46:26] were all flirting with the women

[46:28] and the interesting thing was that every

[46:30] male there felt that some other male was

[46:33] more attractive to the woman it just

[46:36] went right up the ladder until everyone

[46:38] turned to the most handsome One and said

[46:39] you get them all they all want you and

[46:41] he said what are you talking about he's

[46:43] the

[46:44] one being like him I know that and

[46:47] everyone was stunned that everyone has

[46:50] another male to whom he feels inferior

[46:52] huh that is wild second thing that was

[46:56] trally interesting was that that the men

[46:58] were perfectly willing to break up their

[47:00] Unity for the sake of flirting with

[47:02] women it's all gone 2 hours after we got

[47:05] back

[47:07] in so that was very interesting and um

[47:12] and uh so that's an issue in that whole

[47:14] thing and sometimes and I said to them

[47:17] you know in real life if you're sleeping

[47:19] with another man's wife don't tell me

[47:21] you're interested in the men's

[47:23] group you just violated and harmed

[47:25] another male don't tell me you're

[47:28] interested in males I don't believe it

[47:30] at all isn't that what we

[47:33] do so it's interesting how serious the

[47:37] friendship and loyalties of men are and

[47:40] how little we are really conscious of

[47:43] what we lose by letting letting it off

[47:46] and this whole business of feeling I'll

[47:47] tell you this little story I stuck it in

[47:49] the interview at this point because I

[47:50] went out to visit a group in Marshall

[47:52] Minnesota and there a men's group just

[47:54] started there so we went and sat around

[47:55] in the floor

[47:58] finally uh I mentioned that whenever I

[48:00] was in high school if anyone asked me a

[48:02] question I automatically

[48:04] lied cuz I wanted to be more like the

[48:06] basketball

[48:08] players I try to give some half-ass

[48:10] Macho answer you know so I'd be more

[48:13] like the basketball players and oh wow

[48:15] that sank in and everyone went back to

[48:18] their High School oh no and then finally

[48:20] it was a lapse of 5 minutes and finally

[48:22] one man said I wonder if there ever was

[48:24] a basketball player

[48:29] that was very

[48:31] nice well so we're still talking about

[48:34] the

[48:35] wound one of the great books about the

[48:37] wound is Pary fall done in the Middle

[48:40] Ages and there's a very interesting

[48:42] thing there's a procession to the Grail

[48:44] castle and Pary fall goes in he's there

[48:47] and they have a tremendous procession

[48:49] come by and on it there is a lance with

[48:52] blood running down the

[48:55] tip a wonderful symbol of male

[49:00] suffering but paral does not say what is

[49:05] the meaning of this suffering he doesn't

[49:07] say anything and because he didn't say

[49:09] anything the whole Grail Castle

[49:10] disappears and he wakes up outside with

[49:12] his horse in next

[49:14] morning you feel that one when we feel

[49:18] suffering in ourselves or in other men

[49:20] we don't say what's the meaning of this

[49:21] that we don't mention it and then the

[49:23] whole Grail Castle disappears and it

[49:26] takes him 15 years years to get back to

[49:28] that castle again would you say that's a

[49:30] strong

[49:31] one that's incredible and the reason was

[49:33] because his mother told him always to be

[49:37] polite that's what it says in the book

[49:40] his male advisor said whenever you

[49:42] somewhere ask about the meaning of it

[49:43] his mother said when you become a night

[49:45] be

[49:46] polite so we're not talking about anti-

[49:48] female here we're talking about these

[49:50] two codes of living which are both good

[49:52] and strong but one may be inappropriate

[49:54] at a certain time all right

[49:58] all right now so what does it say in our

[50:01] story it says that the wound not needs

[50:03] not only to be to be faced it needs to

[50:07] be dipped in the

[50:08] water the wound of a male needs to be

[50:12] dipped in a pond and not just any

[50:15] ordinary Pond but a pond owned by a male

[50:17] and specifically by the wild

[50:19] man that dipping of the wound is helpful

[50:28] therapy in a way is dipping of the

[50:31] wound it's a way of putting your finger

[50:33] down into that for hour if you got a

[50:35] good therapy man therapy woman provide

[50:39] moistness for you to put your finger

[50:42] in so there's many ways that we can

[50:44] learn to dip our wound but males in the

[50:46] United States usually don't dip their

[50:48] wound they ignore it you can say Macho

[50:51] is a person who's ignoring his wound

[50:54] completely whereas a wild man is one

[50:56] very conscious of the

[50:58] wound

[51:01] so now I want to say one other thing

[51:03] here we're still talking about the

[51:09] wound are you okay are you

[51:12] exhausted okay let's go one of the one

[51:15] of the problems here is that the men in

[51:17] our culture are paying more attention to

[51:19] the wom's wound than to their

[51:23] own so

[51:28] and many men were asked early on to

[51:31] carry their mother's

[51:35] pain this is particularly so in single

[51:38] family places single parent ones the

[51:41] pain of the woman is terrific especially

[51:44] when we force these women to live with

[51:46] low incomes after they

[51:49] divorced their pain is terrific and the

[51:52] son is there and he himself wants to

[51:55] carry that pain h

[51:58] sometimes people say you are the little

[52:00] man in the house now well we know what

[52:02] that means that means we have to be a

[52:04] hero and we have to carry this pain

[52:05] there's no other older male there to

[52:07] carry it so we have to carry it do you

[52:09] understand how that prepares us for

[52:10] carrying your

[52:13] pain so there's a wonderful man uh a

[52:16] good man out in California named KL

[52:18] Faber and he's been giving lectures in

[52:19] Los Angeles uh every month every year or

[52:22] so on the sexual

[52:24] Wars and I heard one of his tapes and

[52:26] I'll tell you what he said in it he

[52:28] mentioned that um he described trying

[52:31] for 10 or 15 years to carry the pain of

[52:33] the women he lived

[52:35] with and or at least be completely open

[52:39] to the depth of it he found out that he

[52:42] couldn't do it for example two of them

[52:44] would begin to talk about male

[52:45] oppression about 10 in the evening and

[52:47] she would want to solve this issue of uh

[52:49] 2,000 years by 2:30 that

[52:53] morning so after four hours of attack

[52:57] and defense Carl said I'd be so weak I

[52:59] didn't know what I was doing anymore so

[53:02] he said I'd be so exhausted I'd agree to

[53:04] anything and if she pointed out any act

[53:07] ID taken as perfect evidence of male

[53:09] oppression I'd agree never to do it

[53:11] again but I really wasn't all there

[53:14] she'd sense that and hadd make her still

[53:16] more

[53:17] enraged besides a month later I'd forget

[53:20] and she'd say you're still the same pig

[53:21] you always

[53:23] were and it's very funny with Carl

[53:25] because he because one of the things he

[53:27] mentions in there is that a lot of the

[53:29] pain of women is is causing Away by

[53:31] these people in Coal Mines that put

[53:33] holes in and demand on looking through

[53:35] the holes from the women where coal

[53:36] miners are taking showers you know that

[53:38] thing that happened down south a while

[53:39] ago now the woman never gets to confront

[53:41] those guys instead it's people like Carl

[53:43] would get it would never look through a

[53:46] hole in a coal mine

[53:49] shower but the women will choose a

[53:51] sensitive one to lay it

[53:53] on and that's perfectly human it's a

[53:55] natural thing to do

[53:57] so often times in our culture in the

[53:59] last 15 years the male spends more time

[54:01] in carrying the woman's pain than he

[54:02] does in carrying his

[54:05] own and the Rambo male conceals his pain

[54:09] um through murder and heroic

[54:12] battles and the male in between this

[54:14] avoids the

[54:16] subject

[54:18] so well so this story says that the pain

[54:23] is best healed in the force field of the

[54:25] wild man and through the whole middle

[54:27] there was a tremendous tales of the wild

[54:29] man and his

[54:32] uh Evan is a story that Joe Campbell

[54:35] often talks about this so an implication

[54:37] of it is that no woman can heal a man's

[54:41] pain and a man is mistaken to ask for

[54:45] that sometimes a man thinks that facing

[54:47] the pain is synonymous with whining and

[54:50] whimpering isn't that right it's a start

[54:53] anyway

[54:57] so we notice that when a man begins to

[54:59] feel his pain and his wound he'll often

[55:02] be he'll sense that men don't want to

[55:04] hear about that

[55:05] pain and that's sometimes true and he'll

[55:08] move towards a woman we sense we talk

[55:10] about it we'll listen and that's usually

[55:13] true

[55:15] so uh the problem is that if you talk

[55:18] about your pain only with a

[55:20] woman you are associating your

[55:23] feeling with the feminine mod of feeling

[55:28] it get all gets stuck over there do you

[55:29] understand what I'm saying I believe

[55:31] there are two modes of feeling the

[55:32] female mode of feeling which is a

[55:33] marvelous mode and the mail mode which

[55:35] is a marvelous mode but if in but in an

[55:38] art in art you know little houses

[55:40] whenever we got wounded in school fell

[55:43] off something we went to our mother so

[55:46] she always responded with that female

[55:47] mode of feeling Our Father wasn't there

[55:49] and so the difficulty I think for men is

[55:51] after years of going to women for this

[55:54] kind of thing we can often project our

[55:56] feeling into enely on the woman and

[55:57] assume that she is much wiser and

[55:59] feeling and all that than we are and we

[56:00] never bring it to a

[56:02] man in fact the way it's going now often

[56:05] times the man carries the pain and the

[56:08] feeling for a woman and sometimes the

[56:10] woman now is carrying the aggression for

[56:12] him how's that for

[56:14] relationship how long do you think

[56:16] that'll last a woman carries the

[56:18] aggression for both of them you know

[56:20] she's saying let's get around let's do

[56:22] this I'm not standing on this stuff get

[56:23] to the

[56:28] and he says well you know you just have

[56:29] to take an account he had a hard

[56:31] childhood the man

[56:36] says all right are you ready to go on to

[56:39] the second day now I wanted to hold you

[56:41] there on the first day to think about

[56:42] the wound a little bit are we settled

[56:43] with the wound are you depressed

[56:46] enough okay let's go on then so the

[56:49] second thing that happened then was on

[56:50] the second day the hair fell in the

[56:52] pond we don't know what to do with that

[56:54] that's the quality of a fairy story

[56:56] absolutely nothing is there you got to

[56:57] work it out yourself there's no answer

[56:59] right or wrong but I would say that what

[57:02] we have here with the uh hair falling

[57:04] the hair is always associated with

[57:07] sexuality and it's difficult for men

[57:10] because women still have Aphrodite as a

[57:12] God is connected connecting their

[57:14] sexuality with the Divine men have

[57:18] nothing most men feel their sexuality to

[57:22] be something sort of um very secular uh

[57:26] um having nothing really involved in it

[57:29] just something practical and and uh

[57:32] really um Unworthy of you and isn't that

[57:35] what they said in Sunday

[57:37] school it's Unworthy of you you got to

[57:40] have higher things man I Mak a jokes

[57:42] forget it

[57:45] um so there there's some way in which

[57:48] when the male initiators came in and

[57:50] worked with that young boy they would

[57:52] show him that his sexuality has a link

[57:54] with the Divine also and that's said in

[57:57] this story by the single hair falling in

[58:00] and turning gold gold is Al the end of

[58:03] the alchemical process gold always

[58:05] stands for the Divine in the fairy

[58:06] choice so now the whole man is not

[58:09] Divine but one hair is

[58:14] divine again that's something that we

[58:16] need to get from other

[58:18] men the awareness that is in many

[58:20] cultures of a connection between

[58:22] sexuality and the Divine so that we

[58:24] don't try to be spiritual here and

[58:26] completely sexual on that one another

[58:30] thing that's beautiful to me is that

[58:31] when he runs it through his hair one

[58:33] thing you can say is that he dipped it

[58:35] the first time and now he's elevating

[58:38] it and also the hair is close to the

[58:41] head so you're taking your uh your pain

[58:44] and you're running it through certain

[58:45] ideas why not take that wound that you

[58:48] have and Associate it with Freud's ideas

[58:50] with yung's ideas with Hillman's ideas

[58:52] all that's a way of honoring your

[58:54] pain by putting it in the area of ideas

[58:57] instead of getting out in a motorcycle

[58:58] and racing off

[59:01] somewhere this needs books this needs

[59:04] thought here so that our pain has a

[59:06] dignified place to be and this is a kind

[59:09] of an honoring of the pain when you run

[59:12] it over your head and elevate it that

[59:14] way so after that's been done after the

[59:17] pain has been dipped and then after it

[59:19] has been elevated and you reg guided

[59:20] with dignity and when people make jokes

[59:22] about it you say I no

[59:24] no don't agree with you

[59:27] or something you understand it and you

[59:30] feel the Dignity of your father's pain

[59:33] in losing you to your

[59:36] mother and the Dignity of your father's

[59:39] pain when you didn't take the work that

[59:40] he was doing in his own

[59:43] life and the Dignity of your pain that

[59:46] pain you felt when you broke from your

[59:47] mother and how terrific that was how

[59:49] what a terrible pain that was and the

[59:52] pain of not having any father near you

[59:55] and the pain of not not having any male

[59:57] initiators at

[1:00:00] all are those enough pains that's enough

[1:00:04] and um when you can think of those as a

[1:00:06] way to the

[1:00:09] Divine not as something bad that

[1:00:11] happened to

[1:00:14] you if you hadn't felt that pain that

[1:00:17] you are feeling you wouldn't be in this

[1:00:19] room right

[1:00:22] now so the pains that we receive are

[1:00:25] ways in which help us to escape from the

[1:00:27] secular and move towards the Divine or

[1:00:29] towards growth do you hear me what I'm

[1:00:31] saying and this was the subject of this

[1:00:33] thing was a wound so I know that you're

[1:00:35] aware of you wounder you wouldn't have

[1:00:36] come to this so we can tell our old

[1:00:39] stories two ways I got wounded my mother

[1:00:41] and father hurt me and it's very bad and

[1:00:43] I feel very bad terrible the other

[1:00:45] that's fine too I love to hear that the

[1:00:47] other way you can say it is my mother

[1:00:48] and father wounded me and I got wounded

[1:00:50] and that's how I got on the

[1:00:52] road without the wound I wouldn't I'd be

[1:00:55] back there right now

[1:00:57] so that's something to understand I

[1:00:58] think it's good third thing after the

[1:01:00] dipping in the elevating then it's

[1:01:02] possible to begin looking into your own

[1:01:03] eyes there are certain moments in the

[1:01:05] life of a human being in which that

[1:01:07] person decides to look at his parents as

[1:01:10] they really are not blaming them or

[1:01:12] praising them just looking at the family

[1:01:14] situation as it is as it

[1:01:17] was that's called looking into your own

[1:01:21] eyes and there's a lot of grief in that

[1:01:24] but you're looking at something out

[1:01:26] there and you're looking at something

[1:01:27] inside at the same time so those are

[1:01:29] marvelous times when you can come to

[1:01:31] that and all I remember M Kushi said I'm

[1:01:34] so shocked when I come to am everybody

[1:01:36] hates our

[1:01:37] [Music]

[1:01:39] pants and I said don't you no no in

[1:01:42] Japan we don't hate our parents the way

[1:01:44] you do here what we do we think that we

[1:01:47] came from oh we came down from Infinity

[1:01:51] counterclockwise and we came down like

[1:01:53] this and uh and our mother gave a place

[1:01:56] in a wom for this to come here him out

[1:02:00] without her

[1:02:02] we so we're very grateful to her cuz she

[1:02:06] accepted this

[1:02:08] counterclockwise and then it's our job

[1:02:10] to move out of here and back to

[1:02:12] infinity and he said we do this one

[1:02:14] pretty well this one we don't do so

[1:02:23] well all right so I'll tell you a story

[1:02:25] now about this thing of looking into the

[1:02:27] eyes to me it's a lovely story um you

[1:02:30] want you want me to stay here do

[1:02:34] you maybe I'll turn this I like to be

[1:02:37] getting nearer people a little

[1:02:39] bit

[1:02:41] side all right when Keith and I were

[1:02:44] doing this interview the first time

[1:02:47] around uh Keith is about 20 years

[1:02:49] younger than I am uh originally from

[1:02:51] Indiana went to California and this is

[1:02:53] the story he told

[1:02:54] me I said said he we started talking

[1:02:57] about this business and not breaking

[1:02:58] from the mother and he said man that's

[1:03:00] like the story of my life and he said um

[1:03:03] my father left the family when I was

[1:03:05] about 12 so I stayed with my mother and

[1:03:07] I was brought up by my mother I was

[1:03:08] brought up by women and he said in high

[1:03:10] school I had wonderful women friends and

[1:03:12] after I got out of high school I met

[1:03:14] some feminists there and they taught me

[1:03:15] tremendous things and I I learned most

[1:03:18] of what I learned from women and they

[1:03:20] were wonderful women and still are and

[1:03:23] uh I said what happened then I had a

[1:03:24] dream I said what is a dream he said I

[1:03:28] dreamt that I was in the forest living

[1:03:31] with She

[1:03:32] Wolves I think the wolf is a positive

[1:03:35] thing here an independent animal I was

[1:03:37] living in the forest with She Wolves we

[1:03:39] ran together in packs very coordinated

[1:03:43] and one day they all went down to the

[1:03:44] river and they bent down to look at

[1:03:47] their faces in the water and I looked

[1:03:49] but where my face should have been there

[1:03:51] was nothing at all

[1:03:59] tough dream isn't it it says that when a

[1:04:02] man is brought up by women not only

[1:04:04] won't he have a ma brought up by women

[1:04:06] exclusively without the male coming in

[1:04:08] not only won't he have a masculine face

[1:04:10] there'll be no face at

[1:04:15] all so I said to him what' you do

[1:04:18] Keith he said well strangest thing was I

[1:04:22] started to think more about my

[1:04:24] father and I wrote to my my father in

[1:04:26] Indiana and I and when I went home for

[1:04:29] Christmas I said to my mother I'm going

[1:04:31] over and spend the night with Dad

[1:04:32] tonight and she didn't

[1:04:33] object women understand this most of

[1:04:36] them I would know spent the night with

[1:04:38] Dad and came back and then a strange

[1:04:40] thing happened he I uh he came out I

[1:04:42] said when you come to San Francisco come

[1:04:44] and see me he said okay I got closer to

[1:04:47] my father and then I ran to Marathon in

[1:04:50] San Francisco and when I came off the

[1:04:52] marathon my father was standing there

[1:04:57] and I had the and he praised me I had

[1:04:59] the feeling was the first time in his

[1:05:01] life that he had praised

[1:05:03] me and me a tremendous amount to me and

[1:05:06] I said what happened then then that

[1:05:07] winter I had my first friendships with

[1:05:10] men had two friendships really deep ones

[1:05:13] with men that year so I thought that's

[1:05:15] really terrifically interesting the

[1:05:16] whole sequence first of all you're

[1:05:18] brought up by women and with women

[1:05:20] exclusively you don't see your face at

[1:05:22] all when you get that shock that you

[1:05:24] don't have a face then then you make a

[1:05:26] contact with your father after the

[1:05:29] contact with the father comes the

[1:05:30] friendships with

[1:05:31] men interesting sequence and one of the

[1:05:34] first things we noticed when we were

[1:05:36] beginning this is so many American men

[1:05:38] have no male friends at all talked to

[1:05:41] one last night I just met someone he

[1:05:42] said you know something I haven't a

[1:05:44] single male friend I'm 32 years

[1:05:48] old

[1:05:50] so well all right so we're just about

[1:05:53] done here

[1:05:53] [Music]

[1:05:54] now um I don't think I want to go into

[1:05:58] uh we can spend a lot of time thinking

[1:06:01] about hair and its relation to Samson

[1:06:03] and all of those things and that's all

[1:06:06] very

[1:06:07] interesting and um but it'll be midnight

[1:06:10] you know so I think we

[1:06:13] go Keith said an interesting thing here

[1:06:15] he said you know well he said when he

[1:06:19] was with germane Greer and Susan Brown

[1:06:21] Miller and Phyllis Chesler he studied

[1:06:22] those Works in college classes it

[1:06:24] depicted the man I didn't want to be but

[1:06:25] it gave no hint of what a positive maale

[1:06:27] might

[1:06:28] be that's

[1:06:31] important a man wrote to Keith after our

[1:06:34] first article came out and he said I've

[1:06:36] signed up for a class at Indiana

[1:06:37] University on male things keithb say

[1:06:40] wonderful he went to the class all of

[1:06:42] the books in the class are written by

[1:06:44] women turned out it was run by a

[1:06:47] woman and Keith said what' you do he

[1:06:50] said I dropped out and took a course in

[1:06:51] woodworking

[1:06:59] so that's not to make fun of the women

[1:07:01] who are doing that it's just to say you

[1:07:03] know if you were a woman and you went to

[1:07:05] a class and all the books in it had been

[1:07:07] written by men and there was a male

[1:07:10] running it what would you do but the

[1:07:12] women seem to think this is not unusual

[1:07:14] they think we're so stupid we can't run

[1:07:16] our own classes can't dress ourselves H

[1:07:19] can't dress ourselves yes that's right

[1:07:21] that's quite true this business of of

[1:07:24] putting your feeling onto the women's

[1:07:25] side it's so interesting because I'll go

[1:07:28] for example my wife is very Savvy in

[1:07:31] this and sort of wonderful in this but

[1:07:33] still I will go into Jers or something

[1:07:35] who I'm going to buy a couple ties right

[1:07:37] so I look at these ties and then I say

[1:07:39] to her I I know I kind of like them and

[1:07:41] I say to her which one do you like and

[1:07:43] she says I like that one and immediately

[1:07:45] the other one

[1:07:47] Fades and I see wow I can see this one

[1:07:49] glowing here how come I never noticed

[1:07:51] that before

[1:07:56] so did you see a man just transfer his

[1:07:58] own feeling stuff over to a woman and

[1:08:00] accept that in my eyes actually

[1:08:02] change I do wallpaper man you to see us

[1:08:04] with

[1:08:08] wallpaper

[1:08:11] so all right so let's go on then to this

[1:08:13] little business here just to stay with

[1:08:15] that of looking into the water so this

[1:08:18] man did the did the opposite thing that

[1:08:19] Keith did when this one who had gone

[1:08:22] through the initiation with the wild man

[1:08:24] looked into the water he saw his own

[1:08:25] face not only saw a mat face he saw his

[1:08:27] own face and then he bent down farther

[1:08:29] to look into the eyes and Antonio

[1:08:30] Machado who's a great poet wrote a

[1:08:32] couple of poems I'll read you four line

[1:08:33] ones the eyes you're looking for listen

[1:08:35] now the eyes you see yourself in are

[1:08:38] eyes because they see

[1:08:44] you another one an eye is not an eye

[1:08:46] because you see it it's an eye because

[1:08:48] it sees

[1:08:50] you to feel that when he looked down

[1:08:52] into his own eyes eventually someone was

[1:08:54] looking back

[1:08:57] the eye you see is not an eye because

[1:08:59] you see it it's an eye because it sees

[1:09:02] you do you understand now how when that

[1:09:05] happens to a man or a woman they feel

[1:09:07] less alone in this

[1:09:09] universe someone is looking at them

[1:09:13] wonderful

[1:09:14] wonderful narcissism is an ugly fault

[1:09:17] and an ancient fault and now it's a

[1:09:18] boring fault

[1:09:21] too nice poem huh narcissism is an

[1:09:24] ancient fault in an ugly fault and now

[1:09:26] it's a boring

[1:09:28] fault not being able to see your own

[1:09:31] true eyes you just see look in your

[1:09:33] mirror for the other one the other one

[1:09:34] who walks by your side intends to be

[1:09:36] what you

[1:09:37] are that's a good poem too always look

[1:09:40] in your Mir you can see in your mirror

[1:09:42] who you are always look in your mirror

[1:09:44] for the other one the one who walks by

[1:09:45] your side intends to be what you

[1:09:47] are all right we're this about done here

[1:09:50] um I wanted to give you some stuff from

[1:09:53] this uh essay because uh we had worked

[1:09:56] on it a long time and been thinking

[1:09:58] about it and I'm going to wrap it up

[1:10:00] here

[1:10:01] now all right so looking into your own

[1:10:04] eyes is the same as seeing your own

[1:10:11] wound the thing to do is instead of

[1:10:13] arguing about what masculinity is or

[1:10:16] about what Macho is to try to carry your

[1:10:18] own

[1:10:24] wound and and asking women to carry your

[1:10:27] pain or your time to carry women's pain

[1:10:29] is a mingling of the two modes of

[1:10:31] feeling many men in the last 15 years

[1:10:34] have tried to be as sensitive as women

[1:10:37] that is to say to pick up the women's

[1:10:38] way of doing things I can guarantee you

[1:10:40] She'll always do it better than

[1:10:42] you haven't got a

[1:10:44] chance a woman knows her mode of feeling

[1:10:47] goes back through her mother grandmother

[1:10:49] all the way back thousands of years

[1:10:51] she's firm in that try to learn

[1:10:54] it can't do it

[1:10:56] I give you an image maybe this will help

[1:10:58] you when I was on in California a man a

[1:11:00] woman that I knew I was going up to a

[1:11:02] men's group and she said to me uh

[1:11:03] psychiatrist from from Malibu came to

[1:11:05] see me last night and he said um tell

[1:11:08] Robert this he said um I am seeing men

[1:11:10] now that are 50 to 60 years old they're

[1:11:12] extremely successful all of them they in

[1:11:14] the world they're very

[1:11:16] strong what they come to me about is

[1:11:19] because when they're in Intimate

[1:11:20] situation they feel

[1:11:23] smothered helpless

[1:11:27] they're strong out there but when

[1:11:28] they're alone with a woman or something

[1:11:30] in an intimate situation they feel

[1:11:34] weak I know that mood very well so I

[1:11:38] just here's an image of it the woman is

[1:11:42] standing on her Mountain it's like this

[1:11:45] here's her grandfather grandmother great

[1:11:47] grandmother grand grand grandmother it's

[1:11:49] all going down what women say to each

[1:11:51] other in the

[1:11:52] kitchen little girls talking with their

[1:11:54] mother

[1:11:57] you stand next to your father 5 minutes

[1:11:59] a day what do you pick up from him

[1:12:01] nothing so therefore this is the only

[1:12:03] Mountain we have now is this woman's

[1:12:06] mountain and you're up there and the

[1:12:08] woman asks you come over and talk to me

[1:12:10] okay I love that I get over there I got

[1:12:12] a little basket I'm hanging off the end

[1:12:14] of the

[1:12:16] mountain

[1:12:18] right anybody cuts

[1:12:21] it so naturally you were frightened in

[1:12:24] the presence of women that enorm

[1:12:26] materially they have of intimacy there

[1:12:27] and we have no advice from our father or

[1:12:29] anyone else how to deal with that am I

[1:12:30] say anything to you so what what men I

[1:12:34] think can do is that when men start to

[1:12:36] to be more with men then they can

[1:12:38] develop a mountain here to of the male

[1:12:40] mode of feeling that's what those old

[1:12:42] initiators did they brought those young

[1:12:43] boys in and they said listen we'll show

[1:12:45] you how men what men love men love to be

[1:12:49] crazy number one they love the other

[1:12:51] world they got these hundreds of

[1:12:53] mythologies they love everyone in them

[1:12:55] SS old thing and um about 3: in the

[1:12:58] morning they love to dance go completely

[1:13:00] mad and sing all this stuff that's the

[1:13:02] way men

[1:13:11] are

[1:13:13] so with that uh you get a sense of being

[1:13:17] able to build a mail mountain and they

[1:13:19] don't abud each other they go right

[1:13:21] through you understand how I mean the

[1:13:22] bases would intersect would go through

[1:13:24] each other fine and then she's on her

[1:13:26] mountain and you are on

[1:13:28] yours and she says something and you say

[1:13:31] something and she says something and you

[1:13:33] say something you're not about you're

[1:13:34] not in a basket about to fall

[1:13:37] off that's my last metaphor I hope you

[1:13:40] like

[1:13:48] it I'm going to do one poem and then

[1:13:50] answer questions okay thank so um

[1:13:55] I thought I would do finding the

[1:13:58] [Music]

[1:14:04] father this body offers to carry us for

[1:14:08] nothing as the ocean carries

[1:14:12] logs so on some

[1:14:15] days the body whales with its great

[1:14:19] [Music]

[1:14:21] energy it throws

[1:14:24] [Music]

[1:14:25] itself up the

[1:14:27] Rocks throwing small

[1:14:31] crabs there's a knock at the

[1:14:34] door we don't have time to

[1:14:36] dress he wants us to go with him through

[1:14:40] the blowing and Rainy

[1:14:41] Streets to the dark

[1:14:46] house and there we will find the father

[1:14:49] whom we have never

[1:14:52] met who wandered out in the snowstorm

[1:14:55] the night we were

[1:14:57] born who then lost his

[1:15:00] memory and has lived since longing for

[1:15:03] his child whom he saw only

[1:15:06] once while he worked as a shoe

[1:15:09] maker as a cattle herder in

[1:15:13] Australia as a restaurant cook who

[1:15:16] painted at

[1:15:18] night when you light the lamp when you

[1:15:22] light the lamp you will see him

[1:15:27] sitting behind the

[1:15:31] door the forehead so

[1:15:34] light the eyebrows so

[1:15:37] heavy lonely in his whole

[1:15:41] body waiting for

[1:15:48] [Music]

[1:15:52] you all right now what kind of question

[1:15:55] what you like to ask yes please I would

[1:15:58] like to know if you'd be willing to give

[1:15:59] us a brief explanation about what the

[1:16:01] Third Day means to you with the full

[1:16:03] head of hair turning to Gold thank you

[1:16:06] good

[1:16:07] question the feeling I think is that

[1:16:14] um when your finger Turns

[1:16:17] Gold may your finger Turns

[1:16:20] Gold you're going to ask yourself when

[1:16:22] was the first time in your life you ever

[1:16:24] felt that the TI of your finger was

[1:16:26] gold I asked that a man said the first

[1:16:29] time I painted a good painting I knew

[1:16:30] the end of my finger was gold another

[1:16:33] man said the first time I made love I

[1:16:35] knew the end of my finger was

[1:16:36] B so there's those moments in us when we

[1:16:39] feel there's something special and

[1:16:40] terrific and then the single hair seems

[1:16:43] to be that issue of uh maybe your

[1:16:45] sexuality realizing something good in

[1:16:47] that male sexuality then the third time

[1:16:51] is when that whole head of hair turns

[1:16:53] gold and there's a Feeling

[1:16:55] that that there's something powerful and

[1:16:58] strong and even Divine in you something

[1:17:01] capable of that and of course what the

[1:17:04] story says is must be bound up

[1:17:06] immediately one of the themes we didn't

[1:17:08] get into here which we get into very

[1:17:10] strongly in the next section of the

[1:17:11] story is that if you have artistic

[1:17:14] ability if you have if you have a soul

[1:17:16] ability that's like having a head of

[1:17:18] hair that's gold and you must hide it

[1:17:21] you must not show it yet our culture is

[1:17:24] completely off on that so they want

[1:17:26] artists to have an exhibition in New

[1:17:28] York when they're

[1:17:29] 23 that's called showing your gold not

[1:17:32] binding it

[1:17:33] up and the gold should be held until

[1:17:36] you're 38 or

[1:17:37] 39 Whitman held his until he was exactly

[1:17:40] 39 I think Wallace Stevens published his

[1:17:43] first book 42 William Stafford 43 before

[1:17:46] he published his first book you

[1:17:48] understand what I'm saying and the

[1:17:49] interesting thing and well I just go on

[1:17:51] with that that that's that's the issue

[1:17:53] that's how he first becomes aware of it

[1:17:54] and binds it up you see and of course

[1:17:57] that's did he do anything wrong in these

[1:17:59] three days no way it's just put that way

[1:18:03] you know if you want if you want someone

[1:18:05] to put something in the pond you tell

[1:18:06] them not

[1:18:08] to that always

[1:18:10] works yes who else please yes please

[1:18:13] what's going on with the a lot a number

[1:18:16] of women are choosing to to have

[1:18:19] children with no husband in mind no

[1:18:21] spouse in mind what's going on what's

[1:18:23] the kind of the dynamic going on there

[1:18:25] I'd say that's called

[1:18:27] ignorance I mean that's what the

[1:18:29] Buddhist say the trouble with the world

[1:18:30] is not sin but ignorance and the idea of

[1:18:33] of those are sperm Stealers it's another

[1:18:35] way to look at them they're sperm

[1:18:37] Stealers they steal sperm and then use

[1:18:40] it and produce a child with no father

[1:18:44] and the idea of trying to bring up a

[1:18:45] young male with no father I think is

[1:18:47] just as crazy as Star Wars by

[1:18:50] rean and um I mean I I feel very

[1:18:54] strongly about that I think these women

[1:18:56] are way off base huh is it Vengeance

[1:18:58] involved in some way it could be an also

[1:19:00] a terrific desire to control in some

[1:19:02] ways a lot of these women wanted to

[1:19:03] control their fathers and couldn't do it

[1:19:05] and now if they get a young male in

[1:19:07] there they can control them

[1:19:09] completely I I don't look on it as a

[1:19:11] happy thing uh those kind of marriages

[1:19:15] and those kind of those kind of uh

[1:19:17] childhoods yes I don't have I don't have

[1:19:20] a clear formulation for this question

[1:19:21] but I'm I'm uh curious about how uh you

[1:19:25] you'd fit an anti-war perspective in

[1:19:27] here I would like to hope that someday

[1:19:29] we can transcend uh some sort of human

[1:19:32] characteristic or tendency toward War if

[1:19:34] that's a fair characterization and how

[1:19:36] can tying backwards into uh the way

[1:19:40] primitive cultures do things help us do

[1:19:42] that well I don't know that's a big

[1:19:43] question but you know I I did a lot of

[1:19:45] work in the antiwar movement in the

[1:19:47] Vietnam War and I don't feel it's

[1:19:48] contradictory here one of the ways to

[1:19:51] say that I think is that Keith here was

[1:19:53] talking about the difference between the

[1:19:55] wild man and the Savage man The Savage

[1:19:59] man is the one who's hiding his

[1:20:01] wound who then inflicts it on

[1:20:07] others you're talking about a lot of

[1:20:09] Pentagon people right

[1:20:11] there and the more the man goes into his

[1:20:13] wound the less likely he is to inflict

[1:20:15] it on others he's living in here in his

[1:20:19] wound H and I also have the feeling

[1:20:22] which I mentioned in the little flyer

[1:20:23] here that the deeper the male goes into

[1:20:24] his grief and his wound the deeper

[1:20:26] spontaneity is and if anything was off

[1:20:29] in the Vietnam Wars a total lack of

[1:20:31] spontaneity we just couldn't react the

[1:20:33] Pentagon couldn't react you know when

[1:20:35] something happened whole thing does that

[1:20:36] help it all yeah thank you please the

[1:20:39] the point just listen to a couple of

[1:20:42] times about finding the

[1:20:44] father um really I wonder if that isn't

[1:20:48] a different activity than sort of

[1:20:50] recovering the Eternal boy or growing up

[1:20:54] the eternal

[1:20:56] I was talking about finding the father I

[1:20:57] was talking more in this area of being

[1:20:59] separated from your father and he's

[1:21:02] lost and one of the old traditions is

[1:21:05] this one you will never get a clear

[1:21:07] picture of your father from your

[1:21:10] mother because the father and the mother

[1:21:13] are competing for your affection you

[1:21:15] mustn't expect it and um I'll tell you a

[1:21:19] story that moved me very much on that uh

[1:21:22] friend of mine I got to be about 35 or

[1:21:25] six and uh I saw him and he said uh tell

[1:21:29] you what happened to me I've been

[1:21:30] separated from my father for over 10

[1:21:32] years after he left 10 15 years and I

[1:21:35] began to realize the truth of what you

[1:21:36] were saying he hadn't heard me say it

[1:21:38] he'd come to that conclusion himself so

[1:21:39] I said what happened he said I I flew

[1:21:42] out to

[1:21:43] Seattle I found I knew my father's

[1:21:45] address I flew out to Seattle I went and

[1:21:47] unlocked in the

[1:21:48] door my father answered the door and I

[1:21:51] said to

[1:21:52] him um I want to say something to you

[1:21:55] I want you to understand that I don't

[1:21:58] accept anymore my mother's view of

[1:22:01] you I said what did he do said he burst

[1:22:05] into tears and he said now I can

[1:22:11] die that's called finding the

[1:22:13] father yes please the

[1:22:17] U that whole business with incest uh not

[1:22:21] only sexual abuse but incest destroying

[1:22:23] the family uh there's two types there's

[1:22:27] the overt which is what everybody's

[1:22:29] talking about and then there's what

[1:22:30] you've been talking about right along

[1:22:32] which is the cobt yep and that's what we

[1:22:34] are not doing we are many of us are

[1:22:37] males are victims of the covert incest

[1:22:40] of our mother because our father wasn't

[1:22:41] there Y and we didn't ever steal the key

[1:22:44] so people say to me what is the function

[1:22:46] of a father one of the major functions

[1:22:48] of a father is to come between your

[1:22:50] mother and your son and say

[1:22:52] enough that's it

[1:22:55] and it has to be understood as your

[1:22:57] function because in our culture that's

[1:22:58] just tremendous that that psychic incest

[1:23:01] going on there there's no one that can

[1:23:02] move in there except the father and he

[1:23:04] has to understand that that's not

[1:23:06] disloyalty to your wife it's loyalty to

[1:23:08] your son how does that affect

[1:23:11] girls you you you talk about this in

[1:23:14] terms of a boy a little boy how does it

[1:23:16] affect no father with a little girl with

[1:23:20] little well one thing you can say I

[1:23:22] don't know we must stop I understand I'm

[1:23:24] just going to get this one out out here

[1:23:25] if I can that the incest thing is very

[1:23:27] strong with the women to there's often

[1:23:29] psychic incest with the father when the

[1:23:30] father's in the house and it's up to the

[1:23:32] father to know how far you can flirt and

[1:23:34] how far you can't flirt that you're

[1:23:36] holding a lot of that energy it's got to

[1:23:37] be held in a very delicate way and me

[1:23:40] held it's got to be warm you got to hold

[1:23:42] it warmly so that you can pass it on and

[1:23:44] she'll have it hold and can give it to a

[1:23:46] male but if the father's out of the

[1:23:48] house then it's given to a remote father

[1:23:51] and then it becomes cold a lot of that

[1:23:53] Sexual Energy she gives to the father

[1:23:54] becomes cold and then when she passes it

[1:23:56] on it's cold you understand what I'm

[1:23:58] saying it's too fast to do this this way

[1:24:01] but anyway I'm interested that you Comm

[1:24:02] into these areas of grief because that's

[1:24:05] where I think we belonged for a while

[1:24:07] and I think we must go yes we come back

[1:24:10] sometimes six months or a year and talk

[1:24:12] more about I will come back in 6 months

[1:24:14] and I'll tell a third part of the story

[1:24:25] thank you

Robert Bly
ArtistRobert Bly

Robert Bly (1926–2021) was an American poet, translator, and editor whose work in mid-century literature and the mythopoetic men's movement shaped both poetry and social thought. H…

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