Transcript
[0:00] uh tree doesn't grow where it's hard and
[0:02] thick does it it goes where it's soft
[0:04] and green and vulnerable the
[0:06] vulnerability is absolutely essential
[0:08] for growth and for vulnerability you
[0:11] gotta let go of those defenses such as
[0:13] the best-selling author and host the
[0:15] number one Health and Wellness podcast
[0:17] on purpose with Jay Shetty
[0:20] hey everyone welcome back to on purpose
[0:23] the number one Health podcast in the
[0:26] world thanks to each and every one of
[0:27] you that come back every week to listen
[0:30] learn and grow now I know that if you're
[0:33] listening right now you're here because
[0:35] you want to improve your mental
[0:37] emotional physical and spiritual
[0:40] well-being I know that you're trying to
[0:41] heal from trauma from stress from
[0:45] pressure you're trying to heal
[0:46] challenges you experienced early in
[0:48] childhood or ones that you're going
[0:50] through today and it's my job and it's
[0:52] my duty and it's my honor and joy to
[0:54] introduce you to incredible people that
[0:57] I believe have answers have insights
[0:59] have helpful approaches to navigating
[1:02] the challenges we all experience and
[1:05] today's guest is someone I have been so
[1:07] excited to speak to for a long time on
[1:10] on purpose I hope this is not just his
[1:12] only time on the show I hope this starts
[1:14] to become a regular guest on the show
[1:16] I'm talking about none other than Dr
[1:18] Gabor mate who's a cell rated speaker
[1:21] and best-selling author he's highly
[1:24] sought after for his expertise on a
[1:26] range of topics such as addiction stress
[1:29] and childhood development Dr mate has
[1:31] written several best-selling books
[1:33] including the award-winning in the realm
[1:35] of hungry ghosts close encounters with
[1:38] addiction when the body says no the cost
[1:41] of hidden stress and Scattered Minds the
[1:44] origins and healing of attention deficit
[1:46] disorder now today we're talking about
[1:49] his new book called The Myth of normal
[1:52] trauma illness and healing in a toxic
[1:56] culture and we have the link to this in
[1:58] the notes I want you to go and order
[1:59] this book right now it is going to blow
[2:02] your mind the insights of this
[2:04] individual about what we're going
[2:05] through as a culture and a society are
[2:08] going to be really powerful so the book
[2:10] is called the myth of normal trauma
[2:12] illness and healing in a toxic culture
[2:15] please welcome to the show Dr Gabor mate
[2:18] thank you so much for being here
[2:20] pleasure to be here thank you I love
[2:22] sitting down with people
[2:24] who are deeply immersed and obsessed
[2:27] with ideas
[2:29] and observing human behavior I
[2:34] admire Obsession deeply in admiration
[2:36] deeply and I admire
[2:38] the ability to sit with something for a
[2:41] long enough time but I want to start off
[2:43] Broad and I want to move in deeper
[2:46] and I think this is a question that me
[2:48] and my friends often talk about I think
[2:50] we hear the word trauma more often these
[2:53] days yes it's thrown around sometimes
[2:56] sometimes it's used effectively
[2:59] sometimes it's used in conversation
[3:02] around things that some people would
[3:05] perceive as small and insignificant
[3:07] sometimes it's used to describe
[3:10] life-defining things
[3:12] in your words how would you describe
[3:15] trauma
[3:16] and why is it so misunderstood even
[3:19] though it's so widespread it's a deep
[3:21] question because on the one hand uh
[3:24] promise sometimes you somewhat Loosely
[3:26] and promiscuously
[3:28] to refer to things that are not
[3:30] traumatic so people will have a
[3:32] difficult experience to say I was
[3:34] traumatized no they weren't they just
[3:36] had a difficult experience
[3:37] and this is one of my colleagues points
[3:39] out all trauma is stressful but not
[3:42] every stress is traumatic so sometimes
[3:44] people use the word to refer to
[3:46] difficult experiences which is not the
[3:47] same as being traumatized and on the
[3:49] other hand where it really matters which
[3:51] is in the area of Health that you and I
[3:53] are both concerned in whether it's
[3:55] physical or mental health trauma is not
[3:57] understood nearly enough or used nearly
[3:58] enough so that to my mind a lot of
[4:01] conditions of mind and body are actually
[4:03] very much trauma related without the
[4:06] healing profession particularly the
[4:08] medical profession actually recognizing
[4:10] it so trombadan is it comes in a Greek
[4:13] word for wounding drum is a wound it's a
[4:15] psychic wound that leaves a scar it
[4:18] leaves an imprint in your nervous system
[4:21] in your body in your psyche and then
[4:23] shows up in multiple ways that are not
[4:27] helpful to you later on so and it's in
[4:30] its basic sense trauma is a psychic
[4:32] wound and if you look at the nature of a
[4:34] wound
[4:36] um on the one hand if it's raw and open
[4:37] it really hurts so when somebody touches
[4:40] that wound that you sustained a long
[4:41] time ago
[4:42] but it hasn't healed yet you'll react
[4:45] like you're just being tormented all
[4:47] over again this happens in relationships
[4:50] all the time on the other hand
[4:52] uh wounds scar over and the scar tissue
[4:55] has certain features is very hard it's
[4:58] rigid so it's not flexible so people
[5:01] tend to be rigid when they traumatized
[5:04] it also doesn't grow so trauma very
[5:06] often stops emotional growth and
[5:08] development
[5:09] is very raw and painful on the other
[5:12] hand it's even lacks sensation because
[5:15] Scar Tissue doesn't have nerve endings
[5:16] in it
[5:17] the trauma then just to finish is not
[5:20] what happened to you so trauma is not
[5:22] the difficult incidence like trauma is
[5:24] not the war it's not the
[5:27] in my case the second world war when I
[5:29] was born or what happened to me Brahma
[5:31] is not the abuse that people experienced
[5:32] drama is not the
[5:34] pain that they felt trauma is the
[5:38] wound that is sustained as a result
[5:41] so the term wasn't for example the
[5:43] sexual abuse Thomas was the wound that
[5:46] the person sustained as a result of
[5:48] having been abused that's the good news
[5:50] Jay because
[5:52] he promised the wound that we sustained
[5:54] it can be healed at any time if trauma
[5:56] is what happened to me 75 years ago or
[5:58] 78 years ago it happened it never not
[6:01] will have happened
[6:03] you know the the partition of India
[6:04] wounded a lot of people but it never
[6:07] would it'll never not have happened but
[6:09] if the wound is what happened to people
[6:11] inside is the result that can be healed
[6:14] hmm that's probably the best
[6:18] differentiator that I've heard and
[6:21] you're right it is good news because it
[6:23] means we can't heal it exactly what do
[6:26] you think of the biggest going the
[6:27] opposite way we're talking about a wound
[6:29] and I want to come back to that but
[6:30] going the opposite way
[6:32] how would you then Define healing
[6:34] because that's another word like trauma
[6:38] that is also just everywhere now right
[6:40] self-healing healing from this healing
[6:42] from that I think healing is such a
[6:46] interesting Concept in and of itself
[6:48] which again is rarely defined or made
[6:51] clear to us and from your studies I
[6:54] would love to hear your thoughts in the
[6:56] same ways you did for trauma what is
[6:58] what is healing sure so you mentioned to
[6:59] me that you spent some time in my
[7:02] homeland of Hungary where I was born
[7:04] and the Hungarian word for health
[7:08] actually begins with the word for
[7:10] wholeness so
[7:12] Health literally means wholeness and the
[7:15] English word for healing and health also
[7:17] come from an animal Saxon origin meaning
[7:19] wholeness
[7:21] so for some reason language is
[7:23] internationally have intuited the
[7:26] essence of healing which is a sense of
[7:28] completion and wholeness now what trauma
[7:31] does is it disconnects us it splits us
[7:34] off from our true self and and
[7:35] disconnect us from our emotions
[7:38] even from our bodies
[7:40] so that that if that disconnection is
[7:42] the essence of trauma then the healing
[7:44] is that coming together of the self to
[7:47] become a whole again
[7:48] and uh healing is often used
[7:51] synonymously with cure fair enough but
[7:54] strangely enough
[7:56] in my view and not just in my view
[7:57] people can be cured from an illness
[7:59] without becoming whole without healing
[8:02] people sometimes also become healed
[8:04] without being cured so in essence
[8:07] healing is not the absence of a physical
[8:10] illness but it's the Integrity of a
[8:14] person who's no longer spit off on
[8:15] themselves I think what we find is that
[8:19] trauma is so as you said a wound that is
[8:22] long lasting it can often be that way
[8:24] yeah but healing is a process that we
[8:27] want to happen now yeah or today yeah or
[8:30] tomorrow yeah
[8:32] I'm intrigued by
[8:35] how does time we've always heard time
[8:38] will heal right like that's a whole
[8:39] cliche it won't yeah right so so let's
[8:42] go back to the wound and talk about
[8:45] is there any relationship between time
[8:47] and wounds or unhealed wounds and what
[8:52] what is that relationship how is that
[8:53] wound being formed internally as you
[8:56] said trauma is not what happens to you
[8:58] it's what happens inside of you
[9:00] that which is happening inside of you
[9:02] what is happening with that wound over
[9:04] time when it's left what happens is that
[9:08] it may be lie dormant for a long time
[9:09] and then something occurs that touches
[9:12] it is when we talk about people being
[9:14] triggered for example something touches
[9:16] the none who will do one inside you and
[9:18] you react you've just been wounded for
[9:20] the first time
[9:21] and certainly I can tell you that's been
[9:23] the case for me for example in my
[9:26] marriage relationship is that the the
[9:28] unhealed wounds you may think you've
[9:31] gone past them but then something will
[9:33] happen that touches that wound and you
[9:36] react like
[9:37] you're being tormented all over again
[9:39] for the first time and time does not
[9:41] automatically heal time maybe scars it
[9:44] over time maybe makes it less available
[9:46] to immediate memory but should something
[9:49] happen
[9:50] to
[9:51] evoke it it's going to show up in its
[9:54] full painful impact until you do some
[9:57] work to heal time by itself does not
[9:59] heal not not spontaneously not
[10:02] um automatically how do we uncover those
[10:04] because I feel that and and maybe this
[10:06] is something to address it's that at
[10:09] least what I find is that a lot of our
[10:11] beliefs
[10:12] that we have about ourselves and about
[10:15] others are wired to try and make us feel
[10:18] safe to some degree so I believe and I'm
[10:23] hypothetically saying this I believe
[10:25] that I am right
[10:26] in my opinion because that makes me feel
[10:29] safe and and secure
[10:31] but often to unearth a wound we have to
[10:34] be okay with the vulnerability of saying
[10:36] well maybe I'm not right maybe this
[10:38] response is coming from some wound that
[10:42] I gain in the past so for example when
[10:45] you were speaking about your marriage
[10:46] you sparked something for me I found
[10:49] that a lot of the love I received when I
[10:51] was younger
[10:53] Was Then followed by guilt
[10:56] so when I received love when I was
[10:58] younger the idea was if I couldn't
[11:01] reciprocate with that level of Love I'd
[11:04] be made to feel guilty that I didn't
[11:06] love someone enough
[11:08] and I found that I would repeat that in
[11:11] my own relationship with my wife where I
[11:13] would over love
[11:15] and if she didn't match that level of
[11:18] love I would then make her feel guilty
[11:20] and it took me years to really discover
[11:23] that pattern and that's just one tiny
[11:25] pattern and whether that's trauma or
[11:27] difficult experiences a different
[11:28] conversation but the idea that spotting
[11:30] that pattern only came from me saying
[11:33] well maybe I'm wrong maybe me wanting to
[11:35] make someone feel guilty is not the
[11:37] right thing
[11:38] how do we assess that how do we gain the
[11:41] vulnerability in safety to to create
[11:44] that future stability does that make
[11:46] sense well it makes sense of sense
[11:47] because vulnerability itself is
[11:49] absolutely essential for growth so
[11:51] vulnerability the word itself comes from
[11:53] the Latin word vulnerary to wound so
[11:55] vulnerability is our capacity to be
[11:57] wounded now the reality is that as human
[11:59] beings we're all vulnerable from
[12:01] conception until death but
[12:04] when we're hurt in childhood and the
[12:07] vulnerability
[12:08] is too painful to Bear we will try and
[12:11] shut down our vulnerability and for
[12:13] example by being right
[12:14] because if I'm right then I'm powerful
[12:16] and I can't be assailed anymore you know
[12:19] but when we do that we stop growing
[12:21] everything in nature grows only where
[12:23] it's vulnerable so a crustacean animal
[12:25] like a crab inside a hard shell it can't
[12:28] Crow it has to molt and make itself very
[12:30] vulnerable to be able to grow a tree
[12:33] doesn't grow where it's hard and thick
[12:34] does it it goes where it's soft and
[12:36] green and vulnerable
[12:38] the vulnerability is absolutely
[12:39] essential for growth and for
[12:41] vulnerability you gotta let go of those
[12:44] defenses such as being right that you
[12:48] developed as a child in order to protect
[12:49] yourself from the pain so that's why we
[12:52] talk about growing pains because
[12:53] vulnerability is necessary for growth
[12:56] without vulnerability there is no growth
[12:58] wow that what you just said that is so
[13:02] beautiful you just said vulnerability is
[13:04] our capacity to be wounded if that's
[13:07] what it means yeah that's I mean that's
[13:09] an incredible definition of the word I
[13:11] think we hear so many definitions of
[13:12] vulnerability but that that
[13:13] vulnerability I'm just going to say that
[13:15] again everyone write that down
[13:16] vulnerability is our capacity to be
[13:19] wounded
[13:20] how do we develop our capacity so
[13:24] actually let's go back to Childhood
[13:25] we'll come back to that so if we go to
[13:26] Childhood yeah what are the things
[13:28] happening currently that you perceive
[13:30] and I know you talk about this in your
[13:31] new book The Myth of normal by the way
[13:34] everything we're talking about is in
[13:35] this incredible book The Myth of normal
[13:37] trauma illness and healing in a toxic
[13:40] culture if you don't have it please go
[13:41] and order it now
[13:43] what is happening in our childhood in
[13:45] society I guess when you say things are
[13:47] not happening to us there are still
[13:49] environmental impacts that are
[13:52] imprinting the potential for this wound
[13:54] to grow what are some of those things
[13:57] that are distorting our development in
[14:00] unhealthy ways in childhood the two
[14:02] things one is obvious like when the
[14:04] children are mistreated maltreated
[14:06] abused sexually physically emotionally
[14:08] when there's violence in the family or a
[14:11] parent is caught up in addiction or
[14:13] where there's a rancor's divorce and a
[14:15] lot of conflict in the home children are
[14:17] just wounded period but it's more
[14:20] Insidious and more ubiquitous than that
[14:23] because children have certain basic
[14:25] needs now if we understand human if you
[14:28] want to understand the zebra
[14:30] or a whale
[14:31] where would you study those creatures in
[14:34] a zoo or an aquarium or out there in
[14:36] nature same with human beings so you
[14:38] have to actually look at what are the
[14:40] evolutionary determined needs of human
[14:42] beings as inculcated or instilled in us
[14:46] through our evolutionary history and so
[14:49] we evolved with certain needs there used
[14:51] to be this belief that children or what
[14:53] are called the tabular rasa you know an
[14:56] empty slate you can just write whatever
[14:57] you want on it program the child in any
[15:00] way you want that used to be the
[15:01] prevailing belief it's not the true
[15:03] children are born with not only just
[15:06] certain needs but certain inherent
[15:08] expectations
[15:10] so to give an example your lungs are an
[15:15] inherent expectation for oxygen because
[15:17] they developed in response to oxygen if
[15:20] there'd be no oxygen in the environment
[15:22] we'd have no lungs
[15:24] in the same way with the human child it
[15:27] has certain inherent expectations
[15:29] and you can wound kids not just by
[15:31] maltreating them but by not meeting
[15:34] those expectations when I asked the
[15:36] expectation I don't mean a conscious
[15:39] expectation I mean an expectation
[15:41] inherent in the organism so children
[15:44] need unconditional living acceptance
[15:47] by multiple adult caregivers which is
[15:50] how we evolved in hunter-gatherer groups
[15:52] and lived that way for millions and
[15:54] hundreds of thousands of years
[15:55] children have a need not to have to work
[15:58] to make the relationship with the
[16:00] parents work so a child didn't need rest
[16:03] from having to
[16:05] struggle to make the relationship
[16:06] functional so they don't have to be
[16:08] pretty or cute or compliant or clever or
[16:12] successful or
[16:14] any of that stuff they just need to be
[16:16] and they don't have to work at getting
[16:18] the parents to accept them that's an
[16:21] essential need of the child when I say
[16:23] essential I mean if it's not met that'll
[16:25] distort child development
[16:27] the third need is really crucial and in
[16:31] our society it's hardly ever met which
[16:33] is the child needs the freedom to
[16:35] experience all the emotions that nature
[16:38] has endowed her or him or they with so
[16:40] we have certain brain circuits for anger
[16:43] for love for play
[16:45] or Lust For seeking curiosity
[16:49] all these circuits are there for a
[16:51] reason we share them with other animals
[16:53] we share them with Bear Cubs and puppies
[16:56] and little whales you know elephant they
[17:00] need to develop because they're there
[17:01] for a reason Evolution gave it to us in
[17:04] our society parents are often advised
[17:06] and taught to suppress certain emotional
[17:08] experiences on the part of the child
[17:10] that's a wound to the child which
[17:12] distorts their development and has
[17:15] significant implications for health
[17:17] later on the fourth need
[17:19] fourth essential need is fee play out in
[17:22] nature
[17:23] free play spontaneous creative
[17:26] imaginative play but that's essential
[17:28] for healthy brain development
[17:30] we share that with other animals baby
[17:33] elephants play Bear Cubs play puppies
[17:35] play lion cubs play
[17:38] crucial for play for brain development
[17:40] we know that now in our society we put
[17:43] cognitive development way ahead of play
[17:46] and I be deprived what children of play
[17:48] by giving them gadgets which deprives
[17:50] them of your imagination
[17:52] so we're actually undermining their
[17:54] brain development and their healthy
[17:55] unfolding as human beings so
[17:57] children can be wounded not just by bad
[18:00] things happening to them but by their
[18:02] needs not being met and in our society
[18:04] when you ask about the environmental
[18:06] conditions that are undermine health and
[18:09] and Child Development these
[18:11] environmental conditions in our society
[18:13] are inimical to a healthy human
[18:15] unfoldment no wonder we have so many
[18:17] children in trouble with anxiety and
[18:19] ADHD and depression and the rate of a
[18:22] childhood suicide is going up and
[18:24] the number of kids being medicated with
[18:27] heavy duty medications multiplicity of
[18:29] medications is going up why because the
[18:32] conditions for healthy development are
[18:34] less and less available to them not
[18:36] because parents don't love their kids
[18:37] not because they're not trying to do
[18:39] their best but because of the conditions
[18:41] under which parenting takes place
[18:43] in this Society yeah just to share some
[18:46] of those stats that are in the book that
[18:48] Dr mate is referring to
[18:51] we have in 2019 more than 50 million
[18:53] Americans over 20 percent of the US
[18:55] adults suffered an episode of mental
[18:57] illness rates of obesity along with the
[19:00] multiple health risks it possesses are
[19:02] going up in many countries including
[19:03] Canada Australia and notably the United
[19:06] States where over 30 percent of the
[19:07] adult population reached the criteria
[19:10] and then this part millions of North
[19:13] American children and youths are being
[19:14] medicated with stimulants
[19:16] antidepressants and even antipsychotic
[19:18] drugs whose long-term effects on the
[19:20] developing brain are yet to be
[19:22] established so you know you share all
[19:25] these insights and research and work
[19:27] what what I'm interested by is let's say
[19:30] a child today is raised in that way I
[19:33] find it fascinating that if you then
[19:35] migrate that child into the
[19:38] real world if everyone is listening I'm
[19:40] doing my quotation marks like real world
[19:42] they walk into this conditioned world
[19:45] that we currently have if we almost
[19:48] raised a village of children in in a I
[19:51] don't know what the right word is but I
[19:53] guess in a more natural way
[19:55] but then they evolved and had to get a
[19:58] job and work in the world
[20:01] how would they function what would be
[20:03] your take on how they would do do I mean
[20:05] is there any research on that or what
[20:06] would be your thoughts about how they
[20:08] would deal with the then capitalist
[20:10] society that is drilled around results
[20:13] and performance and being beautiful or
[20:15] small or cute how would they react to
[20:17] that that question is yeah she has been
[20:19] studied to some degree and they would
[20:22] not automatically buy into the values
[20:24] so they may um need to get a job but
[20:28] they wouldn't identify their themselves
[20:29] with the job and they wouldn't judge
[20:31] themselves
[20:33] based on the external values of success
[20:36] they would also into the world with a
[20:38] sense of purpose
[20:40] and I know you
[20:42] purpose is very important to you
[20:44] so a sense of purpose can only arise
[20:47] from us if we're in touch with the real
[20:49] cells so they would be in the world but
[20:52] they wouldn't be
[20:54] of the world in a sense they wouldn't
[20:56] identify themselves with the values that
[20:59] society would push on them so I think
[21:01] they would struggle but they would do
[21:03] reasonably well and they'd hold them to
[21:05] themselves in the process they wouldn't
[21:06] live a life that's based on what do
[21:08] other people think about me am I pretty
[21:10] enough do they find me attractive uh
[21:13] have I
[21:14] collected enough goods and objects to
[21:16] make me feel okay about myself they
[21:18] wouldn't buy into all that and to the
[21:21] extent that this has been studied and it
[21:23] has been those people that can be in
[21:25] this Society without buying into its
[21:27] values tend to be healthier and more
[21:29] grounded emotionally the reason why I
[21:31] love hearing that is because
[21:33] it's the first time I've
[21:35] connected these ideas together that when
[21:38] I was born and raised in London I was I
[21:40] was born and raised with all the usual
[21:42] Pursuits I have a good education
[21:45] a good home a good financial situation
[21:48] etc those were the ways I was raised and
[21:50] success was a big part of my culture
[21:52] yeah and I chased the validation of my
[21:56] family and the external surroundings in
[21:58] my community and what my aunts and
[21:59] uncles thought of me and when that
[22:01] validation was dissatisfying or didn't
[22:06] feel like it was actually coming my way
[22:09] and when I was finally introduced to the
[22:10] monks at 18 I then seeked the validation
[22:14] of the monks only for them to teach me
[22:17] that the issue wasn't who you seek
[22:19] validation from this you were seeking
[22:21] validation in the first place and so
[22:25] what what you've just said to me is in
[22:26] three years I got a crash course in what
[22:29] you're saying where we spent more time
[22:31] in nature yeah we were trained in
[22:33] unlearning the behaviors and habits that
[22:35] I'd developed for 80 well 21 years at
[22:37] the time yeah and then when I came back
[22:39] into the world the way you just
[22:40] described that is exactly how I felt
[22:42] like I almost felt like a new
[22:44] person coming back into the same world
[22:47] that I left
[22:48] with a completely different approach and
[22:51] a different map of how to navigate it
[22:54] and you're spot on it's still hard it's
[22:58] not that it's perfect and it's easy and
[23:00] it's not that I've got it right it's
[23:02] just that when I am challenged I have a
[23:04] toolkit or I have some ideas as you said
[23:06] with purpose that help me think about
[23:08] the problem differently you're not
[23:10] governed by the same thing so when I
[23:12] went into the world of work and I just
[23:13] want to give people a practical example
[23:15] of what Dr mate is saying is spot on
[23:17] when I went into the world of work we
[23:20] were all told that we had to be good at
[23:23] a list of like 10 things in order to
[23:26] succeed yeah and I looked at that list
[23:28] of 10 and I was like I can do one of
[23:30] those things really well and I'm only
[23:31] going to focus on that one because these
[23:34] other nine are not not my nature they're
[23:36] not my purpose
[23:38] and it's so strange because that one
[23:40] thing made me extremely successful at
[23:42] the company I worked were worked at and
[23:44] then has become how I built my career
[23:46] and and it's so true that had I had gone
[23:49] in and done what 90 of people did I
[23:52] would have become what ninety percent of
[23:54] people were doing that really deeply
[23:55] resonates what is the difference though
[23:57] with and I can't wait to read some of
[24:00] that research on on that I think that's
[24:02] fascinating
[24:03] when you have
[24:05] a culture where I think most people who
[24:07] read this book today
[24:08] the myth of normal
[24:10] will say that they can relate to having
[24:13] trauma illness and trying to be on the
[24:15] path of healing especially our community
[24:16] here they they are absolutely going to
[24:18] love this book this is exactly why we
[24:20] have this show
[24:23] but I find that we would all agree I
[24:25] think if I asked everyone to put up
[24:26] their hands and say how many people feel
[24:28] they experienced a traumatic environment
[24:30] at home
[24:31] I think most people would raise their
[24:32] hands if I asked how many people felt
[24:36] when they were children that they had
[24:38] unhealthy
[24:40] relationships with their parents to some
[24:42] degree I think most people would put
[24:44] their hand up yeah the challenge I find
[24:46] is that
[24:48] I I really feel with what you're saying
[24:50] with the book there's a difference
[24:51] between what you're saying and then the
[24:53] other extreme which is Molly coddling so
[24:56] there's neglect and then there's Molly
[24:58] coddling and I find that as humans our
[25:01] brains are wired for extremes so if
[25:03] we've seen that being
[25:06] mistreated or neglected is really bad
[25:08] for us we go the opposite way and we go
[25:11] okay now I'm going to make sure that
[25:12] this kid has like 24 cushions around it
[25:14] I'd be curious to know I like to answer
[25:16] that question this is a very important
[25:18] one but I just want to know exactly what
[25:20] you mean by Molly Carlin what I see and
[25:22] I'm talking about people that I know and
[25:24] people that will speak to me is that
[25:25] anyone who had a tough childhood are
[25:28] then trying to create a scenario for
[25:30] their child where that child experiences
[25:33] no pain they no longer respond to the
[25:35] child needs they're coming from their
[25:37] own anxieties yes so monocuddling has
[25:40] got nothing to do with the child it has
[25:42] to do with the anxieties of the parents
[25:43] that kid is going to download the
[25:45] anxieties of their parents so
[25:47] mollycodile kids become very anxious and
[25:50] very scared and very ungrounded in
[25:53] themselves on the other hand it's not
[25:55] possible to love kids too much in fact
[25:57] it was a very interesting study
[25:59] where they looked at a large number of
[26:01] mothers and their infants very in the
[26:03] early few months and most mothers in
[26:06] this study were seen as
[26:09] really good Mothers and some were a bit
[26:12] distant and for their own because of
[26:14] their own traumas not as available in a
[26:17] small group we're seen as like super
[26:19] loving
[26:21] in how they doored over their infants
[26:23] okay
[26:25] 30 years later they looked at these
[26:27] infants when I was adults
[26:29] the ones that were most emotionally
[26:30] grounded and healthy were the ones who
[26:32] received the super loving
[26:34] so there's a difference between you
[26:36] can't love a child too much
[26:38] what you can so the model calling that
[26:40] you describe is not a child being loved
[26:42] too much it's a child who has to enjoy
[26:45] the anxieties of the parents
[26:47] and you know there's a very famous
[26:48] example in world history of someone
[26:51] whose parents wanted to protect him from
[26:53] suffering was the Buddha he never saw
[26:55] death he never saw illness and ever so
[26:57] old age until he goes out and sees a
[27:00] dying person sees a very poor person a
[27:03] very ill person a very old person he
[27:04] realizes there's suffering in the world
[27:06] so all the Molly coddling he received
[27:08] could not ultimately
[27:10] protect him from the awareness of pain
[27:13] and vulnerability although if I talk
[27:16] about the Buddha I also have to say that
[27:18] his own trauma is often not talked about
[27:20] because his mother died when he was a
[27:22] week old or right after birth didn't he
[27:24] didn't she so even they try to protect
[27:28] her him they couldn't
[27:30] you know but so anyway Molly coding has
[27:33] got nothing to do with the needs of the
[27:34] child yeah that's a great
[27:35] differentiation it has to do with the
[27:37] unmet needs of the parents and as soon
[27:39] as parents project their needs onto the
[27:41] child no longer see the child as they
[27:43] exist they see their own anxieties
[27:46] they're on their fears and their own
[27:47] fantasies
[27:49] naturally that's going to hurt the child
[27:50] yeah that's such a great differentiator
[27:53] that's
[27:54] again it's a trauma response it's a
[27:56] trauma yeah it's a trauma response how
[27:58] and when should children young adults be
[28:02] exposed to pain in order to develop
[28:04] their vulnerability like as you said the
[28:06] capacity to experience a wound like how
[28:09] and when do we allow ourselves how
[28:12] should we what environment is required
[28:14] to allow ourselves
[28:15] to experience pain in a healthy way or
[28:17] or is it just gonna come anyway it's the
[28:20] nature of life there's no reason to
[28:22] deliberately expose children to pain
[28:24] because they're going to experience it
[28:26] the question is how do we support them
[28:27] and they do you know why because their
[28:29] puppy's gonna die
[28:30] because grandfather is going to die
[28:32] because some neighborhood friend won't
[28:34] want to play with them
[28:36] because
[28:38] they're not going to get the toy they
[28:39] wanted because
[28:42] um
[28:43] some disappointment will happen
[28:45] you know
[28:47] um so pain is inevitable
[28:51] but it doesn't have to become traumatic
[28:53] If the child is supported in
[28:55] experiencing the pain and moving past it
[28:57] so we don't have to impose or bring pain
[29:00] into kid's life to train them
[29:02] life's gonna do that the question is how
[29:04] are we to interact with them while
[29:08] they're enduring the pain yeah and what
[29:09] would you say those are obviously
[29:11] there's the love part which you spoke
[29:13] about but
[29:14] when when a child is going through
[29:16] something like this let's talk about
[29:17] loss because I think that's a big one
[29:19] right like whether you're using a parent
[29:21] or losing a puppy as you said or
[29:23] uh or even if it's not losing a parent
[29:25] to death it's losing a parent to a
[29:27] divorce it's you know for example
[29:29] correct yeah so grief and loss doesn't
[29:31] have to be the end of life it can be
[29:32] everything what or a loss of a country
[29:35] what what are the steps that someone
[29:38] should take in order to helps guide
[29:40] through anyone through law it's not just
[29:41] a child well endlessly enough when I
[29:43] spoke about these brain circuits that we
[29:45] share with those animals
[29:47] for play and for loving and seeking we
[29:50] also have a brain surgery for panic and
[29:52] grief
[29:53] whether we have that because life brings
[29:55] loss and so grief is essential for life
[29:59] because grief is
[30:00] coming to terms with the fact that
[30:02] something is gone is not going to come
[30:04] back
[30:05] you know so um I mean a child
[30:07] experiences grief and you know I said
[30:10] that the the need of the child is to be
[30:11] able to experience all the emotions
[30:13] they need to be able to experience the
[30:15] grief as well um
[30:16] and it doesn't matter whether from adult
[30:19] eyes we see that loss as major or minor
[30:21] it's a question of how's the child
[30:22] experiencing it
[30:24] and for a small child
[30:25] even what looks like small losses can be
[30:28] very painful
[30:31] well then we don't make the child wrong
[30:33] for it we don't say get over it there's
[30:35] nothing wrong think of all the other
[30:36] children who are suffering all that kind
[30:38] of relativistic uh shaming
[30:41] stuff you say oh it really hurts doesn't
[30:43] it you really wish Grandpa would would
[30:47] be here with you you really wish Mom and
[30:50] Dad weren't leaving each other
[30:53] it hurts in other words you just
[30:55] validate their emotions
[30:57] by doing so you help them accept the
[30:59] loss and you have to move through and
[31:01] you help them learn that they can endure
[31:03] difficult emotions without having to
[31:06] become
[31:07] falling to pieces so we have a circuitry
[31:11] for grief in our brain for grief in our
[31:14] brains it needs to be allowed to do its
[31:16] work I find that a lot of us today are
[31:18] reflecting on that inner child right
[31:20] like that language is
[31:21] again more widespread today or is
[31:23] growing the idea of like oh we have this
[31:25] inner child who has this wound or this
[31:27] trauma
[31:28] what what do you find is the difference
[31:31] between analyzing and over analyzing or
[31:35] thinking and overthinking these
[31:37] experiences and how would you define the
[31:39] difference because
[31:41] I I and I'm being very honest and
[31:43] vulnerable because it's the only way to
[31:44] have this conversation really like I
[31:46] often think about events in my life that
[31:48] happened
[31:50] that would be considered
[31:53] generally as either difficult
[31:55] experiences or as traumatic right they
[31:58] could be seen as either or
[32:00] there are some of them that I've worked
[32:02] through myself or with with people that
[32:05] I trust or with guides and
[32:07] and and obviously through my monk life
[32:09] there were things that I looked at and
[32:10] worked on but there are certain things
[32:12] that I don't feel a need
[32:14] like I don't feel a desire to dive into
[32:18] the question I'm asking is should I dive
[32:20] into them or is that considered over
[32:22] analyzing and overthinking and I ask
[32:25] that for everyone else who's listening
[32:26] to this going gosh have I thought about
[32:28] everything that happened to me I could
[32:30] be there for a while uh yeah what's your
[32:33] take on that well first of all in my
[32:35] world there's no should okay there's no
[32:37] there are no shoulds there's no should
[32:39] yeah so um I would never see anybody you
[32:41] should you know because
[32:44] um that itself is intrusive
[32:46] so the question is whether it's helpful
[32:49] or not to delve into the past depends on
[32:52] what's happening with that individual
[32:55] and if some of the impacts effects of
[32:58] trauma as we said earlier is that the
[33:00] the wounds of the past keep showing up
[33:02] in the present
[33:04] so from my point of view it's not so
[33:06] much about delving into the past and
[33:08] dwelling on the past
[33:09] but on dealing with how the past they
[33:11] show up in the present what a
[33:13] psychologist friend of mine Peter Levine
[33:14] calls the tyranny of the past where the
[33:17] past dominates my present reactions
[33:19] it doesn't matter how many times I go
[33:21] back and think about my childhood story
[33:23] that's not going to help me what I have
[33:25] to deal with is
[33:26] what's happening in Mina right now at
[33:28] this very second which is the shadow of
[33:30] the past
[33:31] so
[33:32] thinking about it is not going to be of
[33:34] much help
[33:35] um what's going to help is to deal with
[33:37] the emotions that are arising now as a
[33:40] result of what happened and how those
[33:42] emotions affect my life
[33:45] in the present moment so it's not about
[33:47] the past it's about the present yeah so
[33:49] it's it's really about the choices we
[33:50] have now exactly what's available to us
[33:52] now yeah what's available to us now
[33:54] because I feel like we didn't have a
[33:56] choice in the past because we were there
[33:58] too young or exactly too incapable of of
[34:01] making a choice exactly but the choices
[34:03] that happen right now are can transform
[34:06] everything it is possible some people do
[34:08] make themselves into victims they kind
[34:10] of identify with the victim rule all
[34:12] this stuff happened to me and therefore
[34:14] I cannot do such and such or I'm keep or
[34:17] I'm heard and I'll never get over it
[34:20] it's possible to identify with the
[34:22] victim wrong
[34:23] it's even possible to identify with the
[34:25] survival I'm a Survivor well no that's
[34:28] not who you are you survived but who you
[34:31] are is much greater than that particular
[34:33] experience and who you've always lost
[34:35] much always much greater than
[34:38] your suffering you know and so it is
[34:42] possible for some people to identify
[34:45] with the suffering and the past to such
[34:47] a degree that they stop moving forward
[34:50] yes I think you've just raised really
[34:52] important component of all of this on a
[34:55] deeper level is that
[34:57] what we identify with right even earlier
[35:00] you were talking about people who would
[35:01] be raised in this hypothetical Village
[35:04] we were talking about but even through
[35:05] research they won't identify with the
[35:07] values of a capitalist Society yeah
[35:11] identification you just said people
[35:12] could identify as a victim they could
[35:14] identify as a survivor
[35:17] what is a healthy identification
[35:21] there isn't there isn't one right
[35:23] because I if you look at again the
[35:25] meaning of words and I just find the
[35:28] words fascinating yeah identification
[35:31] comes from a Latin word uh edem which
[35:33] means the same and fechera to make
[35:37] as soon as I make myself the same as
[35:39] something like if I identify with my
[35:40] role as a doctor
[35:42] I immediately limit myself
[35:45] if you identify with your experience as
[35:48] a monk
[35:49] and I don't mean not to learn from it or
[35:51] to grow from it but if I identify with
[35:53] it that's what I am you've now narrowed
[35:56] yourself
[35:57] so there's no healthy identification if
[35:59] I identify
[36:00] myself with a state
[36:02] or a nation I could be loyal to that
[36:05] state or Nation I could love that state
[36:07] or Nation or any group but if you
[36:10] identify with it such as new you have no
[36:12] independent existence you've limited
[36:14] yourself already so when you say is
[36:17] there a healthy identification not
[36:18] really
[36:20] isn't the challenge though that we're I
[36:22] think all of us are pursuing some sort
[36:24] of identification like that seems to be
[36:26] a massive human need like I support this
[36:28] football club or I'm a fan of this band
[36:30] or I'm a member of the this car club or
[36:34] I go to this shopping grocery store or
[36:37] like I feel like we're all wanting to be
[36:39] members like that seems to be like a
[36:41] human need of wanting to be a member of
[36:43] a community wanting to identify with
[36:44] something
[36:45] it is a human need to belong and uh but
[36:48] but can we belong without identifying to
[36:51] the point that we have no independent
[36:53] perspective you know in other words can
[36:55] we be authentic then and I talk a lot
[36:58] about this tension between authenticity
[36:59] being ourselves and attachment which is
[37:02] belonging ideally we can both be
[37:05] authentic and belong
[37:07] yeah but but that kind of identification
[37:09] often leads to suffering I mean it's
[37:11] what the Buddhists call attachment isn't
[37:12] it and let me give you an example so you
[37:15] mentioned sports team so in in the night
[37:18] you wouldn't know this but in the 1950s
[37:20] the Hungarian soccer team was the best
[37:22] in the world we never lost that's I did
[37:24] not I love soccer and I did not no no we
[37:27] went to Britain and we beat Britain six
[37:29] to three in Wembley Stadium the first
[37:31] the first time that it was a sorry Brit
[37:33] fans yeah sorry about but you know um
[37:36] and it was a huge national holiday in
[37:38] Hungary and small country goes to Mighty
[37:40] Britain and beats them at their own game
[37:41] you know
[37:42] and the next year every the whole
[37:44] country was joyful and there's still one
[37:46] of the great memories of my childhood
[37:48] the next year when the world
[37:50] championships and were the heavy
[37:51] favorites because we haven't lost for
[37:52] years
[37:54] and we meet the Germans in the final and
[37:56] we lose three to two yeah National
[37:59] tragedy
[38:00] uh I'm telling you it still hurts you
[38:03] know
[38:04] it's just a football game played on the
[38:07] pitch by 22 guys in 1954.
[38:12] so what you know but when you when this
[38:15] is over identification yeah then that
[38:18] itself brings suffering now you know yes
[38:21] you can support your team
[38:24] in Vancouver British Columbia where I
[38:25] live
[38:26] it's a very peaceful place but the
[38:28] Vancouver connects which is a local
[38:30] hockey team made it to the Stanley Cup
[38:33] finals and they lost they were riots in
[38:35] the streets why because people had over
[38:39] identified you can enjoy the team and be
[38:41] a
[38:42] a sports fan but the identification that
[38:45] your joy or satisfaction depends on
[38:48] whether your team loses or wins well why
[38:51] it doesn't matter yeah I I love that
[38:54] answer for many reasons because
[38:57] I've had to go through the
[38:59] grief of letting go of past selves
[39:04] adopting new selves and then having to
[39:07] realize that none of those were me as my
[39:10] identification so as you rightly said
[39:12] when I took off the garbs of a monk when
[39:15] I took off my robes
[39:16] it was really tough because there was a
[39:19] part of my identity especially at a
[39:21] young age that was attached even to the
[39:24] outer covering and had to realize that I
[39:26] had to extract the inner beliefs and
[39:28] leave the outer covering behind and the
[39:30] outer name and the what that meant and
[39:31] even in my career today like I've had to
[39:34] let go and and even now I don't even
[39:36] know how to identify in one sense
[39:39] whenever I'm sure I'm sure you feel this
[39:41] to some degree in your work as well it's
[39:43] like whenever they say like oh when
[39:44] you're on TV and they want to put like
[39:45] your your title and they'll be like Jay
[39:47] what's your title I'm like I I'm more
[39:50] defined by my purpose than my profession
[39:53] like you know what I what I do for
[39:56] people and the service I want to offer
[39:58] in the world is far more important to me
[40:01] than author or podcaster or former monk
[40:05] or like those things don't really Define
[40:07] me well I get that totally I I am yeah
[40:10] what I'm thinking about is you're
[40:12] telling me when you left those monks
[40:14] robes we talked about the crab didn't we
[40:16] with the heart shell to grow you have to
[40:18] let go of the Shell at some point so
[40:20] each of those moldings represent the
[40:22] point of growth but if the time is
[40:23] difficult so when I left Family Practice
[40:26] to go and work with a highly addicted
[40:28] population in Vancouver
[40:30] and it was a loss of identity for a
[40:32] while I was a bit disoriented for a few
[40:34] days because all these people these
[40:36] families that had relied on me to be the
[40:38] kind of the linchpin of their linchpin
[40:40] of their health and all these people
[40:41] that have come to me and trust me and
[40:44] um who I would see in the office and all
[40:46] of a sudden I left that
[40:50] so I totally understand that no the
[40:53] reality is that I'm so grateful that I
[40:56] did but then I got to experience in the
[40:58] next realm of work helped to further
[41:00] Define my purpose in life and taught me
[41:02] so much about myself and human beings
[41:04] and
[41:06] but at the time it was difficult letting
[41:08] go that identification was difficult and
[41:09] there was really that sense of
[41:12] well if I'm not that then what am I this
[41:13] is what happens when we identify with
[41:15] rules yeah if anyone's listening and
[41:17] wants to have go at figuring out what
[41:19] your subconscious answer is ask one of
[41:21] your friends ask them and then get them
[41:23] to ask you who are you yeah and and your
[41:26] answer to that question not an episode
[41:28] of the time when you ask someone who are
[41:29] you they'll say I'm a lawyer I'm an
[41:30] accountant I'm uh I'm a Brit I'm an
[41:34] American I'm you know always the answer
[41:36] is on such a material Level well as one
[41:39] spiritual teacher said I think unless
[41:41] they're making this up but I think he
[41:42] said they said that the problem is not
[41:45] not knowing who you are the problem is
[41:46] thinking that you know who we are yeah
[41:48] yeah yeah it's incredible isn't it that
[41:51] the things that a true safety feel
[41:53] unsafe to the mind yeah and I'm
[41:56] intrigued by that because you've studied
[41:57] the mind you've studied addiction you've
[41:58] studied healing you studied trauma why
[42:01] is it that we seek certainty and
[42:04] stability when you earlier also said
[42:07] that the only time we experience growth
[42:09] is the opposite when we're vulnerable
[42:11] why is it that we're so addicted
[42:14] to things staying the same or things not
[42:18] changing like that seems to be a core
[42:20] human addiction well a therapist once
[42:22] said to me that this has to do with the
[42:25] nature of the Mind
[42:26] that you're referring to
[42:28] um a therapist once said to me but if
[42:30] your parents didn't know how to hold you
[42:31] you develop the mind you hold yourself
[42:33] with
[42:34] so you find safety in his mind that you
[42:36] created and so the human mind the
[42:39] ordinary egoic human mind is basically a
[42:41] defensive structure
[42:43] it's in significant ways it's a response
[42:46] to pain that's not all it is but in
[42:49] significant ways it's a response to pain
[42:50] it's a fate of pain and it's designed to
[42:53] keep you from experiencing pain so it's
[42:55] worried and it's anxious and it's
[42:57] defensive
[42:59] so when it comes to change and
[43:00] vulnerability the Mind wants to defend
[43:02] against it
[43:03] and so it's it comes out of fear which
[43:06] comes out of childhood experience where
[43:10] the pain that you had wasn't held
[43:13] and therefore we developed these mind
[43:16] structures to keep you from experiencing
[43:18] it and I mean one of them clearly is
[43:21] addiction and you know Keith Richards
[43:23] the world's most famous former heroin
[43:25] addict the Rolling Stone guitarist
[43:28] said about addiction for example
[43:31] his heroine use
[43:33] that the contortions you go through just
[43:36] not to be yourself for a few hours
[43:38] now why would somebody not want to be
[43:40] themselves because it hurts so much at
[43:43] some point to be yourself
[43:45] and then the Mind comes in and tries to
[43:47] protect you on that pain of being
[43:49] yourself
[43:51] with its ideas and his beliefs and its
[43:54] certainties and its endless desires and
[43:58] its artificial needs
[44:01] and it's her faith to let go
[44:03] because if I let go
[44:05] I'll be helpless child again but the
[44:08] Mind large is a defensive structure and
[44:10] then often will react that way that
[44:14] defensive structure
[44:16] obviously it sets us up for so much what
[44:19] is happening inside that makes two
[44:21] people react completely differently to
[44:24] the same thing right you could have a
[44:26] parent that's a drug addict and one of
[44:28] the children goes I'm never gonna have
[44:30] drugs ever again because I saw what I
[44:32] did to my parents and the other person
[44:33] actually imitates the behavior and goes
[44:36] down the same path what have you found
[44:38] or seen that at a young age creates that
[44:41] different Journey well the first thing
[44:44] to say is that no two children have the
[44:46] same two parents and no two children
[44:47] have the same childhoods even even
[44:50] though they grew up in the same
[44:51] biological
[44:52] a family because first of all one of
[44:54] them came along at a different time
[44:56] so they had a different set of
[44:58] experiences this is the birth order that
[45:00] affects how children experience the
[45:01] parents
[45:03] then there's degrees of sensitivities
[45:05] so
[45:07] some people are born more sensitive than
[45:09] others sensitive a game comes on the
[45:11] Latin word sincere to feel so the more
[45:13] sensitive we are the more we feel
[45:16] given the right environment
[45:18] nourishing supportive
[45:21] grounded environment that sensitive
[45:23] child just becomes an intuitive a
[45:25] Creator an artist an actor a leader but
[45:30] in an environment where there's pain
[45:31] that sensitive child suffers more pain
[45:34] than a less sensitive one
[45:36] so you'll have more of a reason to
[45:38] escape from the pain
[45:40] it's not so much that he imitates the
[45:42] behavior of the adult is that he takes
[45:45] the same Escape Route
[45:46] and actions are always there in my view
[45:49] at least an escape route from pain
[45:52] so it has to do with birth order with
[45:54] family circumstances it degrees of
[45:56] sensitivity
[45:58] having said that the other child who
[46:00] doesn't become an addict hasn't
[46:02] necessarily escaped
[46:04] they just may have developed different
[46:05] coping mechanisms
[46:07] there might have become one of these
[46:09] people that are going to make a big
[46:10] success in the world out of themselves
[46:11] and they're going to never going to fail
[46:13] and they have to be the best and they're
[46:15] going to suffer too they just might
[46:17] suffer in a different way that
[46:18] sensitivity you're talking about is
[46:20] probably one of the biggest
[46:22] questions I get asked right now and I I
[46:24] want to ask it to you because I feel
[46:27] your experience could offer some real
[46:28] light on it I feel people are
[46:31] experiencing so much sensitivity
[46:33] and empathy that they just can't stand
[46:36] the world we live in today there are
[46:38] people like that and and I hear this
[46:40] again and again where it's like whether
[46:41] it's the political climate or the
[46:43] economic climate or their family have
[46:46] addictions or friends like everything
[46:48] that you talk about in the book
[46:50] and people feel this can't be my home
[46:54] like I this this is not the place I want
[46:57] to live in and so just as you were
[46:59] saying earlier that someone may have the
[47:00] thought I don't want to be myself or
[47:04] feel like myself for a few hours people
[47:07] say well this doesn't feel like the
[47:09] world I want to live in
[47:11] I'm sure you've met many people who've
[47:13] felt that way seen that way or maybe
[47:15] even talked that way I haven't met
[47:16] people let me tell you something I
[47:17] worked with you I I
[47:19] I had an experience with ketamine a few
[47:21] years ago this is an academy and
[47:23] training for healers and I was injected
[47:25] with ketamine it was taking me where I
[47:28] was taking me and all of a sudden I
[47:29] found myself screaming I hate the world
[47:31] that was good that it would came out of
[47:33] me so I totally know what you're talking
[47:34] I'm just saying that that person I
[47:36] personally know what you're talking
[47:37] about okay so here's the thing
[47:39] I think a lot of that has to do with
[47:42] at first of all the world is getting
[47:43] more stressed it's getting more splited
[47:45] everybody sees that it's getting more
[47:47] hostile in a lot of ways getting more
[47:49] less welcoming and more dangerous
[47:51] more alienating
[47:54] on the one at the other hand we're more
[47:55] and more alone with it I isolation and
[47:58] loneliness are rising
[48:00] so
[48:02] if people experience pain and change and
[48:06] um stress or even Danger communally
[48:11] is bearable
[48:13] but when we're alone with it it becomes
[48:16] less and less bearable and so one of the
[48:18] major factors driving I think the
[48:20] sensitivity that you're describing is
[48:22] just how alone people feel
[48:24] which is how not not how we're meant to
[48:26] be so that the capitalist values of you
[48:29] know aggressive individualistic uh uh
[48:32] ruthless greed and competition
[48:34] against everybody else that doesn't
[48:37] reflect human needs or even human nature
[48:40] not as we evolved
[48:42] but the world the more the world gets
[48:45] that way and the more isolated we become
[48:47] the more vulnerable we are to be hurt by
[48:50] the world that we live in and I think
[48:51] that's what people are talking about um
[48:53] yeah I think one of the biggest things
[48:55] for me I was really fortunate that the
[48:57] client-side coach and the people that I
[48:59] work with I got to experience a lot of
[49:02] individuals who were vulnerable with me
[49:05] but they experienced being
[49:08] lonely and successful
[49:10] and lonely success
[49:14] didn't bring happiness
[49:16] and I know that one thing that me and my
[49:19] wife were always talking about
[49:20] especially because we're in a country
[49:21] where we don't have any family we had to
[49:24] start from scratch in our friendship
[49:26] work and everything was I heard you say
[49:28] in a podcast of how important families
[49:29] to your wife for example for my wife
[49:31] it's huge like her personal family is
[49:33] like everything to her like that's her
[49:35] greatest value
[49:37] but here we had to build our family yeah
[49:39] and I think one of the things we
[49:41] constantly do is we try and make a
[49:42] concerted effort in order to cultivate
[49:45] and curate our community in LA and it's
[49:49] fascinating to me because again
[49:51] perception comes in where most people
[49:53] say to me well la is a very shallow
[49:55] place like La is a very fake place and
[49:56] also well I found some of my best
[49:59] friends here and incredible human beings
[50:01] how much does that perception of a place
[50:04] or a space or a person actually also
[50:06] make us more lonely because I find
[50:08] sometimes that loneliness is created by
[50:11] perception like if we're scared of being
[50:14] vulnerable with someone it's hard that
[50:15] someone will be vulnerable with us right
[50:17] so what do we need to do in order to
[50:20] build deeper relationships for healing
[50:22] and in this path that you're suggesting
[50:24] well first of all it occurs to me that
[50:26] loneliness is
[50:28] obvious perception there's a difference
[50:30] between being alone and being lonely
[50:32] alone is just a fact and that we can
[50:35] Embrace and make decisions about
[50:37] loneliness
[50:40] it's got an emotional
[50:42] charge to it
[50:44] and that's very much a matter of
[50:46] perception
[50:48] you can be alone
[50:50] and not be lonely
[50:52] and you can be surrounded by all kinds
[50:54] of people and be completely lonely
[50:56] so that goes how open am I I'll
[51:00] vulnerable am I really really willing to
[51:02] be
[51:03] what defenses have I erected around
[51:05] myself to protect myself that keeps me
[51:08] from really contacting other people
[51:10] I think we unwittingly generate
[51:14] loneliness there's also something else
[51:17] that happens and you referred to this
[51:18] earlier you talked about Elders so in
[51:20] our society we don't talk about Elders
[51:22] we talk about the elderly it's not the
[51:24] same in our society that defines people
[51:27] so much in terms of their economic value
[51:30] we tend to discard people that are not
[51:33] perceived as having economic value
[51:34] either as producers or consumers
[51:37] so this Society generates a lot of
[51:38] loneliness just because it's
[51:40] materialistic values
[51:42] and in other functioning cultures Elders
[51:45] are not only they're respected but
[51:48] they're also
[51:50] they have a purpose
[51:52] they have the wisdom they have the
[51:54] experience they have the vision they
[51:57] have let go of a lot of the attachments
[51:59] that youth invariably engages with so
[52:02] they have a lot to offer
[52:04] so loneliness is also created in a
[52:06] society that has a very rigid and
[52:09] limited set of values yeah I love the
[52:12] change in the language again of the
[52:13] elders and the elderly and it's
[52:15] I I always go back to that time in my
[52:17] life because it it gave me so much but
[52:20] growing up around people that were the
[52:23] same age younger older yeah and Elder
[52:27] gave you so many different visions of
[52:30] life
[52:31] and when I look back at my childhood or
[52:33] my young adulthood I was constantly
[52:36] surrounded by people that were older
[52:38] than me younger than me much older than
[52:40] me and wiser than me yeah and being able
[52:43] to have everyone's Vantage Point yes
[52:45] created a beautiful 360 degree picture
[52:48] of Life yes but most of today we're only
[52:51] seeing one degree if you spend time with
[52:53] only people your age you're getting a
[52:56] very limited Viewpoint of life versus if
[52:59] you're spending time with a much wider
[53:00] age range and you tend to get a much
[53:02] less mature and rounded view of life one
[53:05] of the books I've helped to write core
[53:07] word is called hold on to your kids but
[53:09] parents need to matter more than peers
[53:10] and
[53:11] the point made in that book is precisely
[53:14] what you just articulated which is that
[53:15] for so many people their world begins
[53:18] and ends with their own age group
[53:19] which is a developmental disaster
[53:23] because again we evolved as creatures in
[53:26] touch with multiple people of multiple
[53:28] ages
[53:29] and we've spent our time around people
[53:31] with multiple ages
[53:32] when you isolate people by age as this
[53:36] culture largely does I mean there's
[53:38] subgroups within subgroups within
[53:40] subcultures within subcultures in a
[53:42] society all based on
[53:44] very shallow identification with age
[53:48] it just limits our development
[53:50] and limits our possibilities and and
[53:53] with that development how do you see
[53:54] human nature do you see human nature as
[53:56] muddied trying to become Pure or
[53:59] beginning at pure and then getting
[54:00] muddied and then trying to go back early
[54:02] how do you see that well we do happen to
[54:06] have a trap to a human nature in this
[54:07] book and and pondering that same
[54:09] question that Jesus raised I'm always
[54:11] come to the conclusion it's not that
[54:12] there's a definable human nature not
[54:14] that you can say because I mean look
[54:16] Buddha was a human being Hitler was a
[54:18] human being
[54:19] one is full of compassion and love and
[54:21] giving the others full of greed and
[54:24] aggression and hatred they're both human
[54:27] beings so how can you talk about the
[54:28] defined human nature however what I
[54:30] think we can say confidently
[54:32] that is a certain human potential
[54:35] based on human needs
[54:38] if those needs are met
[54:40] development would be healthy and those
[54:42] potential will be realized
[54:44] if those needs are frustrated
[54:47] which they severely were in the case of
[54:49] say ahead there a terribly abused child
[54:52] then what you get is the hatred and the
[54:54] rage and the murderous
[54:57] Venom
[54:59] that characterize that personality now
[55:01] when you couple that with political
[55:03] power you see what happens
[55:05] but that's not human nature it's just
[55:08] human nature thwarted because the needs
[55:10] of that child were not met in a society
[55:13] that was completely incapable of meeting
[55:15] people's needs in fact totally abused
[55:18] them so
[55:19] human nature to me is not a given what
[55:21] behaves a human potential based on human
[55:24] needs of these needs are satisfied we
[55:27] can be reasonably confident that people
[55:30] will be connected and generous most
[55:33] people want to be kind I mean it's
[55:35] interesting in a society when somebody
[55:37] does something selfish
[55:39] or greedy you say that's just human
[55:42] nature hmm do we say that when
[55:44] somebody's kind or generous
[55:47] yeah never the the educator Alfie Cohen
[55:49] points that out and if you ask most
[55:52] people when did your body feel more of
[55:54] these when do you experience more peace
[55:56] when you've been kind and generous and
[55:58] giving authentically not for not a sense
[56:01] of Duty but because
[56:03] that was just the impulse or when you're
[56:06] grasping and greedy when is there more
[56:08] tension and more discomfort inside so
[56:10] that should tell us something about our
[56:12] nature that that our nature wants to be
[56:14] aligned with connection and generosity
[56:16] and giving because our bodies will tell
[56:19] us that that is so true that is so true
[56:21] I mean there is no time in life when
[56:24] you're bitter at someone or angry at
[56:26] someone that makes you feel good inside
[56:27] like it does yeah gut wise too I'm not
[56:29] just meaning in the hot space but in in
[56:31] all areas of your body the tension the
[56:33] stress the the holding the tightening
[56:36] but but like we were talking about
[56:37] earlier Society set up in a way for
[56:41] false identification and divisive
[56:43] identification whether it be two sets of
[56:46] soccer fans who now hate each other or
[56:48] rioting or whether it be you know
[56:51] political parties or whether it be
[56:52] businesses at war with each other right
[56:54] like everything's set up in a way to get
[56:57] you to identify with something in order
[56:59] for you to be against something like
[57:01] that's what naturally ends up happening
[57:03] even schools like I went to this school
[57:05] you went to that school we competed
[57:06] competition seems to be something that
[57:10] has been carefully crafted by capitalist
[57:12] society and then when you see the rise
[57:14] of and by the way I love competition so
[57:16] I Health competition is great uh so I'm
[57:19] not talking bad about competition but
[57:21] it's interesting to see how again it's
[57:24] so hard to compete without identifying
[57:27] as that being your worth yeah and that
[57:30] requires so much mental spiritual
[57:34] strength in my opinion to be able to
[57:36] differentiate between identification and
[57:38] attachment well it's really interesting
[57:40] because
[57:41] let's take the example of sports that
[57:44] you just mentioned what do you call the
[57:46] people who participate in those words
[57:48] that we call them players
[57:50] what do we call the process that they're
[57:52] engaged in we call it a game
[57:55] but we don't treat it like players we
[57:58] don't treat it like a game because real
[57:59] games and real play Has No Agenda
[58:02] there's competition in the process and
[58:04] you want to do your best
[58:06] but in the end
[58:08] it doesn't matter if it's just it's for
[58:10] the process and for the joy of it that's
[58:12] genuine play
[58:14] well when you think about these
[58:15] multi-billion dollars Sports Industries
[58:17] and the
[58:19] strategy and the hype
[58:23] that goes into these are not players
[58:25] anymore these are warriors almost as if
[58:27] their engagements are kind of a battle
[58:29] and winning and losing becomes
[58:31] everything like the famous Vince
[58:33] Lombardi Winning is not the only thing
[58:35] is the only thing well that's not true
[58:36] people
[58:37] that's true for the purposes of playing
[58:40] as long as you recognize that you're
[58:41] only playing
[58:43] as long as you don't confuse the game
[58:44] with life itself but once it becomes a
[58:47] business and becomes cutthroat
[58:49] that confusion
[58:51] is really prevalent and people take it
[58:54] so seriously so when you think think
[58:56] about it like you have these terrible
[58:58] conflicts in the world like the war in
[59:00] the Ukraine right now the average person
[59:03] how much time are they induced to spend
[59:05] thinking about those large issues
[59:08] or say but
[59:09] climate change that only the blindness
[59:11] of the blind
[59:13] or the wickedness the wickedest can at
[59:15] this point deny as a reality
[59:17] but how much of our life do we spend
[59:20] actually pondering and engaging with
[59:22] these larger issues compared with
[59:24] analyzing
[59:25] which quarterback should have played in
[59:27] which quarter of which particular NFL
[59:29] game you know so that these so-called
[59:31] games and these so-called players have
[59:34] assumed that far larger importance in
[59:37] their life in our lives whereas the real
[59:39] things we we tend to ignore you've just
[59:42] sparked something for me that
[59:45] I was blown away by this experience I
[59:47] recently went to Rwanda
[59:50] and I went there with Ellen DeGeneres in
[59:54] collaboration with the dying Fosse
[59:55] finders opened up a guerrilla sanctuary
[59:57] and a Conservation Center yes and we
[1:00:01] went there to Trek with the gorillas
[1:00:03] learn about gorillas learn about Rwanda
[1:00:04] and I had never been to Rwanda before I
[1:00:09] I didn't know if I would have visited if
[1:00:10] it wasn't for her
[1:00:12] and the biggest thing I took away
[1:00:15] obviously trekking with gorillas and
[1:00:17] being in nature with a form of life that
[1:00:19] has no interest in us but we're totally
[1:00:21] fascinated by them was an incredible
[1:00:23] experience and I'll talk about that
[1:00:24] separately but the reason I brought it
[1:00:26] up here is I also took time to go to the
[1:00:28] genocide Memorial Museum yes
[1:00:31] and it was fascinating for me to learn
[1:00:34] that it's been around 20 years from what
[1:00:36] I remember a tenth of the population of
[1:00:39] the country so like a million people
[1:00:41] have like 10 million people died in the
[1:00:44] genocide were killed in the genocide
[1:00:45] yeah and most of the people who lived
[1:00:47] there today it was their parents it was
[1:00:50] their ancestors that that did this just
[1:00:51] 20 years ago which is not a long time at
[1:00:54] all
[1:00:56] and I met some of the survivors I sat
[1:00:58] with them in the museum I talked to them
[1:00:59] we talked to the to the locals we talked
[1:01:02] to people that were helping us with our
[1:01:03] travel and arrangements and the hotels
[1:01:05] we stayed at
[1:01:07] and it fascinated me that the people
[1:01:11] were so healed like there was such a
[1:01:15] genuine sincere conversation that they
[1:01:18] have now let go of this to tribe culture
[1:01:22] they've let go of the names the
[1:01:24] identification that they're living by a
[1:01:26] principle they call Ubuntu I am because
[1:01:29] you are I believe or you are because I
[1:01:31] am like that's I'll get that right but
[1:01:33] Ubuntu is the word that they use and it
[1:01:36] was so special I was I was totally I'm
[1:01:39] curious to ask did you delve into what
[1:01:42] allow them to do that they they said a
[1:01:44] lot of it came through the leadership
[1:01:45] like they said that that was how they
[1:01:47] were being it's what you're saying like
[1:01:49] when you said like they were asked to
[1:01:50] you're saying we don't make time to
[1:01:52] focus on these huge issues because we're
[1:01:55] too busy wondering which player played
[1:01:57] in which position yeah that's they
[1:01:59] didn't say it in that way but that's
[1:02:00] what they were saying that our
[1:02:02] leadership encouraged us to think in
[1:02:04] this way
[1:02:05] and I couldn't believe that in 20 years
[1:02:08] when your parents have probably killed
[1:02:10] their parents that you were standing
[1:02:12] next to each other not worrying about
[1:02:14] the lineage that this this culture was
[1:02:17] set out and it was the Europeans who who
[1:02:19] set up part of that anyway but I just
[1:02:21] wanted to understand from you like what
[1:02:24] does it take to get to that level of
[1:02:26] healing because that's you know people
[1:02:28] would say okay well that's a 10 million
[1:02:30] population to me that's still a
[1:02:32] humongous win for the world yeah
[1:02:35] um I was wondering if you've seen
[1:02:36] cultures if you've seen even smaller
[1:02:38] groups or even living through the war
[1:02:39] where you've seen that kind of healing
[1:02:41] before I don't know how the hearing
[1:02:43] happened in Rwanda um yeah
[1:02:45] really encouraged to hear what you
[1:02:47] describe here I think at the very least
[1:02:50] of it the suffering had to be
[1:02:51] acknowledged and had to be heard
[1:02:55] um and fully acknowledged and then the
[1:02:57] hearing can take place yeah
[1:02:59] um without that it can't of course
[1:03:01] absolutely which is why it's so
[1:03:03] important to understand trauma the
[1:03:04] suffering has to be acknowledged now in
[1:03:06] my country Canada like when you talked
[1:03:08] about Rwanda of course that tribal
[1:03:11] hatred didn't just
[1:03:14] ariser from nowhere nor is it
[1:03:16] necessarily in the nature of those
[1:03:18] people to be like that a lot of it was
[1:03:20] the legacy of colonialism that quite
[1:03:22] deliberately and
[1:03:24] you would know something about British
[1:03:25] colonialism
[1:03:27] um it quite it quite deliberately said
[1:03:29] one group against another the legacy of
[1:03:31] which was often tremendous struggle and
[1:03:34] hatred and violence in Canada as in the
[1:03:38] United States the legacy of colonism
[1:03:40] Falls far more particularly on our
[1:03:42] indigenous peoples
[1:03:44] so then to this day
[1:03:46] they suffer so much the addiction made
[1:03:50] as much higher amongst them fifty
[1:03:52] percent of the women in jail in my
[1:03:53] country are indigenous people wow they
[1:03:55] make up five percent of the population
[1:03:57] wow an indigenous woman is six times the
[1:04:00] rate of rheumatoid arthritis
[1:04:02] they never used to rheumatoid arthritis
[1:04:04] prior to colonization there's been some
[1:04:07] apologies in Canadian history
[1:04:10] but there's been not sufficient
[1:04:12] acknowledgment of what actually happened
[1:04:16] and what continues to happen
[1:04:19] and I'm saying that an essential
[1:04:21] condition for that healing would have to
[1:04:22] be acknowledgment
[1:04:24] so the wolf came to Canada just maybe
[1:04:26] six weeks ago because
[1:04:29] the church cooperated with the state to
[1:04:32] abduct children from their homes
[1:04:33] indigenous children from their homes for
[1:04:35] over 100 years
[1:04:36] into the 1990s into these residential
[1:04:39] schools where our native children were
[1:04:40] not allowed to see their parents where
[1:04:42] their culture was extirpated they had
[1:04:44] pins stuck in their tongue if they spoke
[1:04:46] their tribal language
[1:04:48] they were sexually abused often they
[1:04:50] died they were physically abused they
[1:04:54] were starved and the pool came and
[1:04:56] apologized
[1:04:57] and you know what the apology was I'm so
[1:05:00] sorry for what some Christians did to
[1:05:01] your people
[1:05:03] well that's
[1:05:05] he means well as a person
[1:05:07] but that wasn't that was an apology
[1:05:10] uttered by an institution
[1:05:13] because it wasn't
[1:05:15] or it should have been uttered by the
[1:05:16] institution but they said what some
[1:05:18] Christian wasn't some Christians it was
[1:05:20] the state
[1:05:21] and it was the church and what I'm
[1:05:23] saying is that was a good first step
[1:05:26] but until there's full acknowledgment
[1:05:28] and and we are fully willing to hear the
[1:05:31] suffering of the people that we hurt and
[1:05:34] that's why in the 12 Steps whether they
[1:05:36] do they lose moral inventory how did we
[1:05:38] hurt somebody and how can we without
[1:05:41] imposing on them
[1:05:43] how can we acknowledge
[1:05:45] if that's appropriate so I think for
[1:05:48] healing whether for myself or people
[1:05:52] that I've heard
[1:05:53] there has to be acknowledgment yeah of
[1:05:56] the of the suffering itself I think
[1:05:57] that's the First Essential step the
[1:05:59] challenge we have though right in
[1:06:00] society is that
[1:06:03] I fully agree with you but from for most
[1:06:06] people we will never get the apology we
[1:06:09] deserve because again we live in an
[1:06:13] unhealed environment where people are
[1:06:15] not coming out of the woodwork and
[1:06:17] saying I'm so sorry for what happened
[1:06:19] and even if they do it's a bad apology
[1:06:22] or a incomplete apology or a 10 apology
[1:06:26] so how do we function in a world where
[1:06:29] often the closure
[1:06:31] doesn't come from the person who hurt us
[1:06:34] or the person who created the wound or
[1:06:36] that we received a wound through and it
[1:06:39] really comes down to us like no that's
[1:06:41] true yeah so I work a lot with
[1:06:43] indigenous groups in Canada
[1:06:46] um when they asked me to and first of
[1:06:49] all I often say about who the hell am I
[1:06:51] to offer your advice because in your
[1:06:53] Traditions there's so much healing
[1:06:54] wisdom so that the best advice I can
[1:06:56] give you a store
[1:06:58] follow your own Traditions but I often
[1:07:02] say to them as well don't wait for the
[1:07:04] acknowledgment from the government or
[1:07:06] from society because it's going to take
[1:07:08] a long time coming but you need to
[1:07:10] acknowledge your own suffering
[1:07:12] you need to acknowledge your own pain
[1:07:16] and then
[1:07:17] there's so many rituals there's so many
[1:07:19] Traditions the dance and the chanting
[1:07:22] and the drumming and the sweat lodges
[1:07:24] and the the sun dancing and the going
[1:07:27] back to the land and the wisdom circles
[1:07:31] and the and the restorative justice
[1:07:33] there's so much wisdom so what I'm
[1:07:35] saying to people is acknowledge your own
[1:07:37] suffering but to look to the wisdom
[1:07:39] Within
[1:07:40] toward the healing and it's there that
[1:07:43] wisdom to heal is inside cultures and
[1:07:46] Society peoples and inside individuals
[1:07:49] as well
[1:07:50] we both have to acknowledge the
[1:07:51] suffering and not get stuck on it yeah
[1:07:54] but then to look for the healing
[1:07:56] capacity within yeah and you certainly
[1:07:59] can't wait for the world to
[1:08:02] it's nice but you can't wait for it
[1:08:04] otherwise you're dependent on somebody
[1:08:06] else for your healing yeah and I feel
[1:08:08] like when you're healing
[1:08:11] most apologies are dissatisfying like
[1:08:14] when you're healed or and we'll talk
[1:08:16] about that what that means but I feel
[1:08:18] like when you're more along the process
[1:08:20] of healing you can receive an apology
[1:08:22] you can receive a a vulnerable piece of
[1:08:25] information from someone who may have
[1:08:27] hurt you or but when you're when you're
[1:08:28] in the thick of the healing process I
[1:08:31] find that validation and apologies
[1:08:33] rarely really feel that good like you
[1:08:37] know and I'm saying that for myself I
[1:08:38] know that when I've worked when I've
[1:08:39] been in the thick of like working really
[1:08:41] hard in my life or trying to make
[1:08:43] something happen and someone says yeah
[1:08:44] you're doing great it doesn't feel like
[1:08:46] anything because you almost feel you
[1:08:48] don't feel fully understood it doesn't
[1:08:50] make sense yeah
[1:08:52] seeing you yeah and you don't feel seen
[1:08:55] no you don't feel seen there's seen some
[1:08:56] aspect of you yeah but we need to be
[1:08:58] seen that's that's a human need there's
[1:09:01] a psychotherapist here in California
[1:09:03] called Eve yes absolutely yeah I know it
[1:09:07] is
[1:09:09] was in the same train probably or quite
[1:09:13] likely on the same train to Auschwitz
[1:09:15] that my grandparents were along with her
[1:09:17] family
[1:09:18] she's in her 90s now she describes
[1:09:21] because they came from the same town in
[1:09:23] southern Slovakia Northern Hungary
[1:09:26] her parents were killed in Auschwitz as
[1:09:29] we were grandparents Edith
[1:09:32] describes in one of her books that she
[1:09:33] goes back to the Burghoff which is in
[1:09:35] the burway in Alps where Hitler lived to
[1:09:38] forgive Hitler wow
[1:09:40] which is not to say to make it okay what
[1:09:43] he did
[1:09:45] but to release him from the cage that
[1:09:48] she kept inside her own heart because
[1:09:49] that limited her so the Forgiveness
[1:09:51] wasn't it's okay what you did the
[1:09:54] forgiveness was I was gonna hold this
[1:09:55] hatred in this resentment in me anymore
[1:09:57] because this limiting me
[1:10:00] you know so the work really is internal
[1:10:02] where do you see the connections between
[1:10:05] you talked about the
[1:10:06] you know the practices and the healing
[1:10:08] of the indigenous people Etc how much do
[1:10:10] you see a connection between
[1:10:11] spirituality and healing and where has
[1:10:14] it gone right and where does it
[1:10:15] sometimes go wrong so first of all
[1:10:16] spirituality is one of these words that
[1:10:18] again gets thrown around yeah it gets
[1:10:20] thrown around the who knows what
[1:10:22] somebody means when they talk about it
[1:10:24] yeah
[1:10:24] so we can only talk about it in terms of
[1:10:26] what you mean by it yeah and what I mean
[1:10:28] by it so yeah I I liked what you said
[1:10:30] that there are ancient Traditions yeah
[1:10:32] that Focus heavily on inner healing yeah
[1:10:36] and that I'll explain my chance the
[1:10:39] challenge I see is that often even these
[1:10:42] ancient Timeless Traditions have now
[1:10:43] become externalized and
[1:10:45] institutionalized so they've lost their
[1:10:47] purity of the inner healing that's
[1:10:49] required and they become commodified
[1:10:50] correct right yeah which is what will
[1:10:52] happen in a material Society yeah I
[1:10:55] spend time with some indigenous people
[1:10:57] earlier this year in a in a ceremony
[1:10:59] what I was struck by is uh the deep deep
[1:11:03] deep connection with nature in fact even
[1:11:06] the connection is inadequate a word I'm
[1:11:08] talking about Unity
[1:11:09] like they just felt so alive David blade
[1:11:12] of grass and every tree and
[1:11:15] the mountain that overlooked our
[1:11:17] ceremony and the Bison that were in the
[1:11:20] field
[1:11:21] so for me spirituality if it means
[1:11:24] anything at all it means sense of
[1:11:27] connection to something larger which is
[1:11:29] difficult to Define
[1:11:31] and may be different for every person or
[1:11:33] for every group but it's something
[1:11:34] Beyond The Limited
[1:11:36] confines of both body and the egoic mind
[1:11:40] no I think that's our nature as human
[1:11:42] beings I can't prove it
[1:11:44] but that's my sense and I think and and
[1:11:47] certainly when you talk about the
[1:11:48] indigenous Traditions they talk about
[1:11:49] the medicine wheel which is
[1:11:52] um the quadrants involve the uh our
[1:11:55] emotions and our physical bodies and our
[1:11:57] social relationships and our spiritual
[1:11:59] selves
[1:12:00] and we have to be sort of grounded in
[1:12:02] all four of those quadrants to be fully
[1:12:04] whole
[1:12:06] so I think there's something in that
[1:12:07] spirituality that is really essential to
[1:12:09] us what that is I think each person has
[1:12:12] to discover for themselves if they don't
[1:12:14] have a tradition that
[1:12:16] already grounds them in it yeah yeah you
[1:12:18] reminded me of my time that I spent
[1:12:21] with some groups in Hawaii and they had
[1:12:23] a song for the sun and the Sea and they
[1:12:25] had a beautiful ritual where when a
[1:12:27] child is born the umbilical cord is
[1:12:29] placed on the earth and then they carve
[1:12:32] almost like a
[1:12:34] a pattern There To Remind the child that
[1:12:36] this is your connection to the Earth
[1:12:37] that I always thought that was such a
[1:12:39] beautiful ritual I I was wondering
[1:12:41] whether you've seen or whether you've
[1:12:43] looked at a tool any aspects of
[1:12:45] reincarnation or past lives or trauma
[1:12:48] across lives or or seen any connections
[1:12:51] or study in that space I've had people
[1:12:53] talk to me about their experiences and
[1:12:55] there's a rabbi I met once who
[1:12:58] told me that in ancient times he was a
[1:13:01] priest in Egypt well it was in no way
[1:13:04] Luna a lunatic you know or a psychotic
[1:13:06] he was very grounded lovely man you know
[1:13:08] and he was convinced my mind doesn't go
[1:13:10] there
[1:13:11] uh I've I've read something about these
[1:13:14] Traditions you know the Tibetan
[1:13:16] tradition of the Bardo and the you
[1:13:18] probably know a lot more about it and I
[1:13:20] do but I have not personal experienced
[1:13:22] it
[1:13:22] and my mind as I've experienced my mind
[1:13:25] so far
[1:13:26] hasn't found a space for knowing what
[1:13:30] that really means I understand it
[1:13:31] intellectually yes yes but I
[1:13:34] I there's nothing in me resonates with
[1:13:36] it as far as I can recognize yeah now
[1:13:38] maybe at some point I have some huge
[1:13:39] Awakening uh or maybe after I die
[1:13:41] there'll be a huge joke on me you know
[1:13:43] you didn't believe buddy well here it is
[1:13:46] but frankly right now if you ask me I'd
[1:13:48] say nothing in me goes there or even
[1:13:51] wants to that's my real that's my truth
[1:13:54] no I appreciate that yeah no no I always
[1:13:56] find it fascinating for people who study
[1:13:58] trauma especially when we when you as
[1:14:00] you said that you know no no child
[1:14:03] starts at a blank slate they start with
[1:14:05] a makeup to some degree and so that's
[1:14:09] why I was intrigued but uh Dr Martin
[1:14:11] it's been it's been so beautiful talking
[1:14:13] to you because uh I feel like I get to
[1:14:16] ask you questions that
[1:14:19] I wouldn't often receive the answers and
[1:14:21] the quality of answers the depth of
[1:14:23] answers that you can provide I I see you
[1:14:25] as a true um Elder as a wise person in
[1:14:28] our society and I I respect you a lot
[1:14:29] for that and well thanks so much I I can
[1:14:31] tell you quite honestly that this is not
[1:14:33] an interview like I've ever had before
[1:14:34] thank you so much no well thank you and
[1:14:36] I hope this is the first of many uh and
[1:14:38] I want to make sure that everyone has
[1:14:40] been listening and watching I would love
[1:14:42] for you to order a copy right now of the
[1:14:45] myth of normal trauma illness and
[1:14:48] healing in a toxic culture we touched on
[1:14:50] subject matter from within the book we
[1:14:52] touched on ideas from within the book
[1:14:54] but as you can see these are my favorite
[1:14:56] books the you know it's a it's a it's a
[1:14:59] real deep study book uh please go grab a
[1:15:02] copy I could not recommend this more I
[1:15:04] will be posting from the book as I read
[1:15:07] more deeply through it as well on my
[1:15:08] Instagram so if you want to see my notes
[1:15:10] or takeaways then they'll be there as
[1:15:12] well and please please please follow Dr
[1:15:14] mate on Instagram as well we will put
[1:15:16] the links in the show notes follow him
[1:15:19] and share all the insights that you got
[1:15:20] from this if there's something that
[1:15:21] stood out I mean there were so many
[1:15:23] beautiful descriptions of words
[1:15:24] definitions Clarity between ideas that I
[1:15:27] think have just just words that we use
[1:15:30] every day and we don't know what they
[1:15:31] mean so if something stood out to you
[1:15:33] tag me and Dr Mateo on Instagram on
[1:15:35] Twitter on Tick Tock let us know what
[1:15:38] you've learned and what you've taken
[1:15:39] away and I promise you that this will be
[1:15:40] a great investment this year uh Dr Mata
[1:15:43] is there anything that I haven't asked
[1:15:45] you before we ask you the final five
[1:15:47] which are our fast five questions uh is
[1:15:49] there anything you'd like to share that
[1:15:51] I have given you an opportunity Yes to
[1:15:52] God I can't think of anything that you
[1:15:53] ever knows I love it okay well these are
[1:15:56] five questions that have to be answered
[1:15:58] in one word to one sentence maximum so
[1:16:01] you have like a very tight like almost
[1:16:02] think of like Twitter these are final
[1:16:04] five the first question is what is the
[1:16:07] best advice you've ever received on
[1:16:10] healing or trauma authenticity expand
[1:16:12] I'm gonna ask you to expand because I
[1:16:14] want to hear now be yourself you know
[1:16:17] um when I was a very confused young man
[1:16:19] and I was acting out all over the place
[1:16:22] I had an ant
[1:16:24] who herself as a very traumatized person
[1:16:26] she was an ostrich Survivor and she came
[1:16:28] back weighing 80 pounds
[1:16:31] she was an ophthalmologist
[1:16:32] and she saw me being authentic and she
[1:16:35] quoted she sent me this passage from
[1:16:37] Hamlet that famous phrase unto yourself
[1:16:39] be true and it follows his night today
[1:16:42] that then thou can't be false to any man
[1:16:45] so be true to yourself without going to
[1:16:47] the details that Oriental mind couldn't
[1:16:50] be true to herself because of the nature
[1:16:52] of this culture but that advice has
[1:16:55] always stayed with me yeah so
[1:16:56] authenticity has been a major theme in
[1:16:58] my life it's amazing I love that that's
[1:17:01] a great answer okay question number two
[1:17:02] what's the worst advice you've ever
[1:17:04] heard or received around troll man
[1:17:07] healing is it okay if nothing comes up
[1:17:09] for me yeah if you've never had any bad
[1:17:10] advice that's good uh what is something
[1:17:12] that you once valued that you no longer
[1:17:15] value
[1:17:16] this is almost true
[1:17:18] what other people think of me yeah I'd
[1:17:21] be lying if I said but at the same time
[1:17:23] I can do without it
[1:17:26] it was still there but I'm not attached
[1:17:28] to it
[1:17:29] Yeah question number four how would you
[1:17:31] define your current purpose in life my
[1:17:34] purpose is that people are free
[1:17:36] from limitations of culture and also the
[1:17:41] limitations of their own past and of
[1:17:43] their own minds
[1:17:44] and also free politically so my purpose
[1:17:47] is that people are free it's beautiful
[1:17:49] and Fifth and final question if you
[1:17:51] could create one law that everyone in
[1:17:54] the world had to follow what would it be
[1:17:56] one rule one rule one law one principle
[1:17:58] that everyone in the world had to follow
[1:18:00] if it was coercing and creating the
[1:18:03] impression that one had to do anything
[1:18:04] that already would defeats his own
[1:18:07] purpose because as soon as somebody has
[1:18:09] to
[1:18:09] it's almost like just just lean forward
[1:18:12] for a minute would you yeah and put out
[1:18:14] your hand yeah what do you do as soon as
[1:18:16] I push on your hands use this so as soon
[1:18:19] as people sense that there's a had to
[1:18:21] there's gonna be resistance so I'm going
[1:18:23] to decline answering that that's a great
[1:18:24] answer we've never had that on the show
[1:18:26] I love that answer that's a brilliant
[1:18:28] answer that's fantastic I love I love
[1:18:31] the way you think the myth of normal is
[1:18:33] out right now trauma illness and healing
[1:18:35] in a toxic culture Dr gabo mate uh it's
[1:18:39] been an honor thank you so much it's
[1:18:40] been so much fun and we'll do it again
[1:18:41] absolutely thank you thank you thank you
[1:18:43] if you want even more videos just like
[1:18:46] this one make sure you subscribe and
[1:18:48] click on the boxes over here I'm also
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[1:18:55] like a monkbook.com check Below in the
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