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Watch

Housing Crisis Masked: Why the Market Is Worse Than 2008

Jon Brooks
Jon Brooks
Oct 16, 2025
10 min read
Watch · 8

On the surface, the housing market appears resilient. Headlines talk about record construction and sustained demand. Walk through most neighborhoods, though, and the story shifts: for-sale signs cluster on blocks, builders advertise steep rate buydowns to move inventory, and homeowners face negative cash flow they can't escape. The crisis building now isn't the subprime collapse of 2008. It's something more insidious and, according to market analysts tracking delinquencies in real time, potentially worse—because it's hidden inside government-backed lending programs, obscured by industry data with built-in conflicts of interest, and enabled by the same financial interventions that prevented foreclosure waves in the last downturn.

Read · 9 sections

Government Subprime Has Exploded—But It Has a New Name

When most people hear "subprime lending," they picture 2008: reckless banks handing mortgages to unqualified borrowers, no money down, stated income, the whole playbook of irresponsibility that helped tank the financial system. That market was roughly 7% of total lending at the height of the last crisis. Today, government-backed subprime lending—primarily through FHA (Federal Housing Administration) programs—has more than doubled to 13-14% of the market, dwarfing the private subprime sector that triggered the last collapse.

The machinery behind this expansion works like this: FHA loans were originally designed to help first-time homebuyers with minimal down payments and credit scores as low as 580 (with compensating factors). The program made sense in theory. In practice, after traditional banks retreated from lending following 2008, non-bank lenders moved in to fill the void. Today, roughly 85% of the mortgage market is government-agency-backed (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, or FHA), with the rest split between non-qualified mortgages (private loans to borrowers who don't meet standard criteria) and conventional loans. The growth in FHA lending hasn't been accompanied by stronger borrower profiles; it's been accompanied by looser standards and a much larger book of government-guaranteed risk.

This matters because the government is now holding the bag on a class of borrowers who, historically, become delinquent at higher rates when economic stress hits. In September 2024, 30-plus-day delinquencies increased significantly—a number the industry tried to explain away using calendar effects, but which seasoned mortgage professionals recognize as a genuine signal of borrower distress. The non-QM sector, that 3% of the market outside government backing, is already running at approximately 12% delinquency. When you layer that on top of the government books, you're looking at 15% of the entire market already over 10% delinquent—before any recession or employment shock.

Why the Numbers Don't Match the Narrative

Here lies a central tension: if the market is as strong as industry spokespeople claim, why are delinquencies rising while unemployment remains relatively low? The answer lies in how the data is collected, modeled, and reported. The National Association of Realtors, which controls much of the housing data widely cited in media and industry reports, doesn't publish real-time transaction counts. What they publish are modeled results—estimates built on algorithms with embedded assumptions. Those models have a structural bias: the organizations funding them (homebuilders, mortgage lenders, real estate platforms) have a financial stake in appearing healthy.

In January 2023, independent analysis challenged the "historic housing shortage" narrative that had dominated industry talking points for years. That analysis predicted inventory would grow—a position most mainstream housing media dismissed at the time. Inventory did grow. Today, the same narrative persists despite contradictory signals on the ground: lowest first-time homebuyer participation since the 1980s, sales volumes at levels not seen since 1995, and yet industry analysts continue projecting bull markets.

The conflict of interest is structural and pervasive. Media platforms like HousingWire are often financed by or dependent on advertising from homebuilders and mortgage lenders. The financial incentive is to maintain confidence, keep buyers entering the market at peak prices, and keep lending flowing. Individual real estate agents and brokers—whose income depends on transaction volume and selling prices—have no incentive to tell a story about declining demand or negative equity. Industry groups like the National Association of Realtors benefit directly from transaction volume. When everyone making money from the market is also the person providing the public data, the odds of an honest assessment shrink dramatically.

Builders Are Selling Below Resale—And Trapping Buyers

One of the most damning signals sits in plain sight: new home builders are offering 3% interest rate buydowns to move inventory, pricing new construction below what resale homes in the same neighborhoods command, and in some markets cutting prices to levels not seen in years. This isn't a sign of strength; it's a sign of capitulation.

When a builder can sell a new home for $275,000 but a resale home next door lists for $300,000, the buyer choosing the new home gains apparent savings. What they don't immediately see is that they've entered the market at a price point that the existing homeowner paid significantly more to achieve. If interest rates drop later, the resale owner can refinance. The new buyer, locked in by builder buydowns and potentially underwater, has fewer options. If rates stay high or climb further, both face negative cash flow—some calculations from active brokers show homeowners facing $800-$900 monthly deficits between what they owe and what the home would rent for. When that gap persists, short sales become the inevitable release valve.

This builder behavior is itself a warning signal. Builders don't cut prices and offer rate subsidies when they're confident in demand. They do it when they have too much inventory, when forward sales are weakening, and when they need cash flow to survive. It's a sign of desperation masquerading as marketing.

Demographics Have Already Spoken—The Demand Narrative Is Fiction

The "housing shortage" narrative rests on a simple claim: we need more homes because demand is strong. But demand isn't a force of nature; it's a function of population, family formation, and wealth accumulation. On all three fronts, the data is contracting.

Population growth in the U.S. is at replacement level. Birth rates have fallen below replacement for years. Immigration has provided population growth, but the relationship between immigration and housing demand is far more complex than builders and real estate advocates acknowledge—many new residents have lower wealth accumulation and different housing preferences. Meanwhile, the boomer generation—roughly 15.6 million people—will pass between 2025 and 2035. Another 25 million between 2035 and 2050. These aren't abstract statistics. They represent the primary holders of real estate wealth and the largest cohort of homeowners entering the selling phase of their lives. When you have millions of homes potentially entering the market from estate sales, downsizing, or forced sales, and simultaneously have the lowest first-time homebuyer participation in 40 years, you don't have a shortage. You have a supply-and-demand imbalance in the opposite direction.

The "shortage" narrative was convenient for speculators, investors buying rental properties, and builders looking to justify new development. But it was never supported by solid demographic modeling. The market has been driven by speculation and investor purchases for decades—probably since the late 1980s—not by primary residence demand. Once that speculative demand softens (as it does when interest rates are high and cap rates compress), the structural weakness becomes visible.

Regional Overbuilds Are Signaling Nationwide Trouble

Florida and Texas overbuilt aggressively during the pandemic boom. Both states are now seeing inventory spikes, price pressure, and builder inventory gluts that contradict the national narrative. The Midwest, which had been treated as a secondary market with different dynamics, is also seeing inventory growth. The Northeast faces demographic headwinds that are even sharper than the national average. There is no regional island of resilience large enough to offset the macro picture.

What's instructive is how long the "it's different here" narrative persists even as conditions prove otherwise. Every market cycle has its local variation, but when the pressures are systematic—too many homes, too few buyers, too much debt, rates that make existing mortgages look like lottery tickets—no amount of regional uniqueness matters. Eventually, contagion wins.

Private Credit Stress Is Already Leaking Into Housing

The crisis of 2008 didn't begin with housing. It began with housing collateral being pledged across the financial system, with one sector's stress infecting others through interconnected debt structures. Today, private credit—loans made by non-bank lenders outside traditional banking regulation—is showing cracks. Auto lending delinquencies are rising. Tricolor First Brands, a major finance player, has already filed bankruptcy. Non-QM lending, which operates as a quasi-private credit market, is running at 12% delinquency. When liquidity stress hits private credit broadly, housing will follow, because housing finance is increasingly a private credit play.

The guardrails that prevented total collapse in 2008—government intervention, zero-interest-rate policy, quantitative easing—were applied immediately and kept the system afloat. We're not in that environment now. Rates are higher, the Fed's balance sheet is less flexible, and government tolerance for another massive bailout is lower. The fact that delinquencies are rising in this relatively stable environment should alarm anyone paying attention.

What Homeowners Facing Negative Cash Flow Should Consider

For someone who bought at the top of the market, financed high, and now faces $800-$900 monthly negative cash flow, the options are grim: hold on to cash, hope for rate cuts that may not materialize, or initiate a short sale before conditions deteriorate further. This is the calculus facing millions of homeowners silently right now. Most won't talk about it openly. Many don't realize they have options. What they know is that their monthly payment, taxes, insurance, and maintenance exceed what they could rent the home for by hundreds of dollars, and there's no obvious end to that gap.

Short sales were the pressure release valve in 2008-2012. They're likely to be it again, with all the collateral damage (credit impact, deficiency judgment risk in some states, emotional toll) that accompanies them. But they're also the market's way of repricing when traditional sales can't.

Why Luxury Isn't Insulated

The wealthy are often positioned as immune to housing downturns. Luxury demand tends to hold up longer because it's driven by different economics: all-cash purchases, international money, trophy assets. But luxury demand is already slipping, and the mechanism of contagion is straightforward: when middle-market housing is under pressure, the entire wealth ladder compresses. Someone who planned to trade up their $400,000 home to a $600,000 home can't if their home value stalled. That blocks the pipeline for the person trying to move to an $800,000 home. And so on up the chain. Luxury may not crash as hard as mid-market, but it doesn't decouple entirely from systemic housing stress.

The Industry's Conflict of Interest Is the Story

At the deepest level, this crisis is being obscured not by incompetence but by incentive. HousingWire, the industry's primary news source, is financed by the industry it covers. The National Association of Realtors, which controls housing data, benefits from higher transaction volumes and higher prices. Homebuilders funding media narratives need buyers to keep entering the market. Mortgage lenders need volume. Real estate agents need sales.

None of these actors are stupid. They simply have a financial reason to maintain the bull narrative for as long as possible. It's not a conspiracy; it's structure. And structures like that are resilient until they're not.

The people who see the mismatch first are on the ground: real estate professionals watching inventory rise despite headlines saying inventory is tight, homeowners watching their neighborhoods fill with for-sale signs, buyers paying more than a home is worth because rates make existing mortgages so valuable that underwater purchases seem rational.

When common sense—what you see when you drive around town—conflicts with official narratives, the narratives usually lose eventually. That process has already begun. The question now isn't whether the housing market will face stress, but how deep it goes before the financial system's exposure forces intervention, repricing, and the long, painful process of returning to fundamentals.

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Transcript

[0:00] So Melody, the market has been changing

[0:03] rapidly here on the ground. Are we

[0:04] headed towards another 2008 type of

[0:07] housing crisis going into the next few

[0:09] years?

[0:11] Sure. So, you know, I think I just want

[0:13] to contextualize some of this in terms

[0:16] of

[0:17] what happened in the last crisis. You

[0:19] really had a little subprime bubble that

[0:22] burst, but it didn't bring down the

[0:24] financial system by itself. It was

[0:27] really about the collateral being

[0:29] pledged across the system and when you

[0:30] have an issue

[0:32] in liquidity like what we're seeing

[0:34] right now at Tricolor First Brands this

[0:37] what's brewing in the auto sect sector,

[0:40] but what's really brewing in the private

[0:42] credit markets. That's what ultimately

[0:45] will create the credit crisis that was

[0:48] 2008.

[0:49] From a housing market perspective, yes,

[0:52] we are seeing some very similar things.

[0:55] They just have new names.

[0:57] And so for instance, like

[1:00] government subprime is a thing.

[1:02] We had FHA which as I'm sure you know

[1:05] gentlemen of course and your viewers

[1:07] probably do as well. But quickly this

[1:09] was a program initially meant for first

[1:11] time home buyers where very low down

[1:13] payment credit scores that could go as

[1:15] low as 580 with compensating factors

[1:18] things like this. That market was about

[1:20] 7% last time. It has now doubled. It's

[1:24] around 13 to 14%. So it's a much bigger

[1:27] deal.

[1:28] And so you kind of saw private and I

[1:30] think what's important people always

[1:32] talk about the banks, right? Well, what

[1:34] happened is the banks kind of scaled

[1:36] back from lending. They kind of got out

[1:38] of the game.

[1:40] And so these non-banks have taken over.

[1:42] But most of the market is in some sort

[1:45] of government agency is government

[1:48] agency backed. You know, almost 85% of

[1:50] it.

[1:51] But you have a little of the 3% that is

[1:55] um

[1:56] what we call non-qualified mortgage or

[1:58] this private it's already around 12%

[2:01] delinquent. And so you're looking at

[2:03] about 15% of the market that's over 10%

[2:06] delinquent right now as it is. But it's

[2:08] being masked by the larger books with

[2:10] Fannie and Freddie. So

[2:13] essentially what most people don't

[2:15] realize as well is that the actual

[2:16] foreclosure was not really driven by

[2:19] subprime. It was driven when the prime

[2:21] got in trouble after the credit crisis.

[2:25] The difference here is that even those

[2:28] prime books are not as firm as people

[2:31] think because credit scores were

[2:34] inflated, right? And so that's a big

[2:36] component of these automated

[2:38] underwriting services. And what we're

[2:41] going to see pretty soon here and I

[2:42] think we're already seeing it John. I

[2:44] I've just looked at my client books for

[2:46] September. 30 plus delinquency increased

[2:49] significantly.

[2:51] Industry wide we only have August

[2:53] numbers right now.

[2:55] Which they said increase, but they

[2:56] blamed it on the calendar which doesn't

[2:58] make any sense.

[2:59] Not if you know mortgage not if you know

[3:01] borrower behavior. So I know you asked a

[3:04] simple question, but there's you know,

[3:06] is it is it going to be like 2008? I

[3:09] think it's important that we understand

[3:10] the differences and where the stress is

[3:12] going to occur.

[3:14] But in essence, I think it's going to be

[3:16] worse than 2008 for a variety of

[3:19] reasons.

[3:21] We've overbuilt. That's again. And you

[3:25] know, the consumer is just kind of

[3:27] tapped out and we also have already had

[3:30] GFC style intervention in the housing

[3:32] market. That we have any delinquency

[3:35] right now is should be concerning to

[3:37] everyone. And as you know, those

[3:40] guardrails went on that FHA program

[3:41] October 1st. Um

[3:44] So this is you know, stop me when you if

[3:47] there's a thread you want to pull cuz it

[3:48] it's a very complicated picture.

[3:51] But in essence, yes, we we've got a

[3:54] housing crisis brewing. Right. And I

[3:58] love that message and I see it too

[3:59] because I'm in real estate on the

[4:00] day-to-day on the ground. So what you're

[4:02] seeing at the high level we're seeing

[4:04] show up. Though I'm seeing on websites

[4:06] like HousingWire and these other people,

[4:08] they're saying we're about to go on the

[4:09] largest bull run ever in history. What

[4:12] are they missing because it doesn't make

[4:14] sense to me why they're pushing this

[4:16] narrative. Do you have any commentary on

[4:18] why they think that the market's going

[4:20] to continue forever?

[4:22] No. And you know, my original piece in

[4:26] HousingWire in January of 2023

[4:29] I challenged the housing inventory um

[4:33] shortage narrative. Yeah. I was the only

[4:35] one of a group of people um and of

[4:39] course they didn't take me very

[4:40] seriously, but they were also very

[4:42] surprised when inventory started to

[4:44] grow. And now they're just there's a

[4:48] debate I did with Logan that I think

[4:50] everyone should from HousingWire should

[4:51] check out. It was hosted by Eric

[4:54] Bosmajian.

[4:55] And you know, they they seem to believe

[4:59] that with dual income houses which we've

[5:02] had since the 70s by the way.

[5:05] Um

[5:06] It's somehow we're going to deal with

[5:09] this affordability crisis. The problem

[5:11] is we've got the lowest sales last year

[5:14] since 1995 and we've increased

[5:16] population by over 20%. That doesn't And

[5:19] by the way, it looks as if we were also

[5:22] lending to the immigrants. I mean that

[5:24] that just came across X Twitter or

[5:26] something I've been wanting to get my

[5:28] hands on that

[5:29] data. So I mean it's just insanity for

[5:33] us to talk about how and then we're

[5:36] facing these large negative demographic

[5:38] trends. We're not having babies. We're

[5:41] not replacement rate. The boomers and I

[5:44] think I saw this also in your yeah, in

[5:47] these slides. You know, 15.6 million

[5:50] will leave us between 2025 and 2035 over

[5:53] 25 million between 2035 and 2050. And so

[5:57] the demand is just not going to be

[5:59] there. But what most people don't

[6:01] realize is that the housing market has

[6:02] been about speculation for a very long

[6:04] time probably since the late 80s and

[6:07] about investor purchases, you know, to

[6:09] do long-term rental or short-term

[6:11] rental.

[6:12] And it's not about first time home

[6:13] buyers lowest first time home buyers on

[6:15] record since they started tracking the

[6:18] 80s last year. So this market is all

[6:21] about housing speculation and I think

[6:23] that they largely missed that. Um

[6:27] Is that on purpose? Are they missing the

[6:29] demographics on purpose? You know, I

[6:32] think it's in their vested interest to

[6:34] keep the narrative going and certainly

[6:36] the National Association of Realtors who

[6:39] you know, they've got the lockdown

[6:41] on all this data and it based on my deep

[6:46] dives very deep dives into that data.

[6:48] These are not real time

[6:51] numbers sales figures. These are

[6:53] actually modeled results. And that model

[6:56] is very biased. And so what are they

[6:59] missing? I think they're just afraid

[7:01] that their paychecks going to go away.

[7:04] And they don't really care about Jane

[7:06] and Joe out there who are trying to find

[7:09] a home and I think you know, I was

[7:10] saying this to someone else earlier

[7:12] today is that even as an influencer on

[7:14] the very small scale that I'm on. I take

[7:17] my job very seriously. I know that

[7:19] people listen to me and they make big

[7:21] decisions based on what I'm saying and

[7:23] that's terrifying. I don't think these

[7:25] guys are terrified at all. They don't

[7:27] care. And so

[7:29] that's John I mean I really don't know

[7:31] the answer. Either they're

[7:33] not bright or they're doing it on

[7:35] purpose. Right. And of course they're

[7:37] likely being financed by homebuilders

[7:40] and mortgage lenders who need to push

[7:42] the narrative that the market's going to

[7:43] continue forever to try to convince the

[7:45] next buyer to get in at the highest

[7:47] price to fill them out. And so there's a

[7:49] massive conflict of interest from people

[7:51] who are being paid to create data and

[7:53] charts to share a narrative just like

[7:55] most news sources which is why I think

[7:56] the majority of people now are going on

[7:59] YouTube. They're following you. They're

[8:00] following your Substack. They want to

[8:02] you know, talk with independent

[8:03] reporting sources that they trust more

[8:05] than the media because what they're

[8:07] seeing on the ground, right? When

[8:08] they're driving around town and they see

[8:10] you know, 15 for sale signs in their

[8:12] neighborhood, but they see on

[8:13] HousingWire that we're about to go on a

[8:15] 25 year bull run. It like to them the

[8:17] common sense it just doesn't add up to

[8:19] them. However, I will ask you this

[8:20] Melody. There are regional differences.

[8:23] Oh yeah.

[8:23] >> And I know that they point to the

[8:25] differences. Well, you know, the South

[8:27] is one area, the north is one area. Will

[8:30] will it eventually this kind of activity

[8:34] that we're seeing depressed is basically

[8:36] depressed here in Florida. I can give

[8:37] you a bunch of examples. But will this

[8:39] type of effect that we're seeing in

[8:41] Florida happen in the northeast? Will it

[8:42] happen in these other markets across the

[8:44] country or are they completely insulated

[8:46] for other reasons?

[8:48] Like you say, you know, we hear all the

[8:50] time, you know, real estate is local and

[8:52] it absolutely is.

[8:54] That's why I track 85 markets and each

[8:56] of them has a different set of problems.

[8:59] You know, so California

[9:01] did a lot of building in certain areas

[9:04] by the way, but couldn't do as much and

[9:06] say LA, but they lost 300,000 people. So

[9:10] you know, all of these things so the so

[9:12] right now what's happening is is just as

[9:14] you rightly point point out, you know,

[9:16] we've got this big outsize impact in

[9:18] Florida and Texas where they just went

[9:21] gangbusters building and you know, what

[9:24] I saw on the road still makes me

[9:25] nauseous when I think about it because

[9:27] you know that many of those subdivisions

[9:29] will have to be bulldozed. And that's

[9:31] somebody put money into that. so it's

[9:33] going to be a lot of loss. Yeah. And so

[9:37] this this is I mean my favorite thing to

[9:39] do is to actually do the listings plus

[9:42] the Airbnb map cuz you can see that this

[9:46] is an infestation. It's an infestation.

[9:49] That's like if you've ever studied

[9:51] disease and how it travels, that is that

[9:54] is what this is. So they have a very

[9:57] specific um

[9:59] set of issues. And by the way, they

[10:01] didn't have the

[10:02] the population growth that everybody

[10:04] thought.

[10:05] Um it was more a temporary short-term

[10:07] boom for all those people coming to

[10:09] build those houses, plus the supporting

[10:11] of that very part-time short-term uh

[10:14] kind of

[10:16] industry. Cuz when the builders leave,

[10:18] so do all those adjacent services.

[10:21] But now you got to take the Midwest,

[10:23] okay? Um so, we've talked about the

[10:25] West. I mean, cuz many parts of the area

[10:27] they also built like crazy. California

[10:30] just has to be one where they built like

[10:31] crazy in Riverside, but then in the big

[10:34] cities they lost a ton of their

[10:36] residents. Uh so, let's take the

[10:37] Midwest. Um this time last year people

[10:40] were still piling into the Midwest for

[10:42] speculation because they would watch

[10:43] analysts like me or Ivy Zelman uh saying

[10:47] things like, "Well, you know, the

[10:49] Midwest still has relatively cheap

[10:51] housing prices." And I've had this

[10:53] argument with investors on Twitter where

[10:56] they're like, "Well, it's so low

[10:57] compared to everywhere else." I'm like,

[10:59] "Yeah, the household median income is

[11:00] $30,000." Relative income. Like who who

[11:04] who? And and often what happens, John,

[11:06] is it'll be like, "Oh, a data center's

[11:08] coming, you know, like a semiconductor

[11:10] plant. Uh we're going to have 3,000

[11:12] jobs." Okay, I've tracked many of these

[11:15] projects. Most of them don't happen.

[11:18] If they do happen, it ends up being like

[11:20] 20 jobs. Or it ends up being like in

[11:22] Phoenix where they had to hire people

[11:24] from Taiwan because there was nobody

[11:27] skilled enough to work there. Um or at

[11:29] least that's what they said. And so,

[11:31] these promised jobs never happen. And

[11:32] so, out in Ohio, there were some

[11:35] semiconductor plants that were going to

[11:36] happen. And so, investors just went

[11:39] bananas buying all these things up,

[11:41] swooping all of the inventory off the

[11:43] market. Well, guess what?

[11:45] Just like in the South, just like in the

[11:46] West, the inventory started growing as

[11:49] people realized, "Oh, I can't sell this

[11:51] house for $100,000 more in the middle of

[11:53] nowhere, Ohio." Yep, that's right,

[11:55] buddy. You can't. So, uh inventory is

[11:58] starting to grow non-seasonally there,

[12:01] far out pacing every other region. Um

[12:05] and you've got price cuts. You've got

[12:07] motivated distressed selling.

[12:09] Indianapolis, Kansas City, Cincinnati.

[12:12] Uh prices are coming down. So, it's

[12:14] starting in the Midwest now as that

[12:16] inventory accumulates. The Northeast.

[12:18] The Northeast is old

[12:21] and they have the worst demographics.

[12:24] They have the highest amount of

[12:25] unaffordability.

[12:27] And you take somewhere like Boston where

[12:30] because they weren't getting tax revenue

[12:32] from commercial real estate anymore cuz

[12:34] it's empty,

[12:35] uh they decided to tax their residences

[12:39] instead. And so, you know, as these

[12:42] folks kind of age out as too cuz of the

[12:45] demographic and here's where people

[12:48] get confused cuz often they'll be like,

[12:50] "Well, it's not that old there." Okay,

[12:52] well, here's the other problem.

[12:54] Look at your owner occupancy.

[12:56] Um look at that rate because what

[12:59] happens in a lot of these big cities is

[13:00] you have investors that own rental

[13:03] properties and those could be

[13:04] institutional investors

[13:06] or mom and pop investors. And mom and

[13:08] pop investors are the biggest, but you

[13:10] have a whole bunch of people that own in

[13:12] the Northeast. Um a whole bunch of

[13:14] people are then, of course, renting, but

[13:17] those renters can't afford to purchase

[13:20] those homes. And so, as these boomers,

[13:23] as we talked about, who own the majority

[13:25] of the homes, have to sell these homes

[13:27] or as they pass, which I'm helping

[13:30] several people with inherited properties

[13:32] right now that are having a terrible

[13:34] time,

[13:35] then you're going to have more

[13:36] inventory. So, all you really need to do

[13:38] is crack open one of these markets and

[13:40] look at those factors and you will see

[13:42] that the Northeast is also in for a

[13:44] world of hurt. And it really it comes

[13:47] down to demographics

[13:49] and affordability. I know that was a

[13:51] lot, but it's nowhere

[13:54] are you going to have one neighborhood

[13:56] that does better than others? Sure.

[13:57] Sure. A lot of this has been on the back

[14:01] of what I'll call bezel, which is the

[14:03] people with the Porsches, the people

[14:05] with the Lamborghinis, the boats, all of

[14:07] this. That's all been bought on

[14:09] leverage, so don't be surprised

[14:12] when your neighbor, who you thought was

[14:13] super wealthy, the for sale sign goes

[14:16] up.

[14:17] Yeah, we're already seeing that across

[14:19] the board. And nobody was actually truly

[14:21] wealthy, they just borrowed assets the

[14:22] entire time.

[14:24] >> And so, let's let's take into

[14:25] demographics because this is like a

[14:27] terrifying chart that just has been

[14:28] circulating around and it talks about

[14:31] the demographics for the next generation

[14:33] for homeownership. This is the US

[14:34] homeownership rate by birth decade. Look

[14:37] at what it was previously to where the

[14:40] chart seemed to be going for the 1990s

[14:42] and 2000s. So, we're talking like Gen X,

[14:45] Gen Z, and my generation. I mean,

[14:48] people, you know, I'm 34 years old, the

[14:50] people I spend time with, they can't

[14:51] afford to have kids. They're opting to

[14:53] have just one kid. They don't need a

[14:54] larger house, but the people who are

[14:56] selling the houses right now here in

[14:57] Florida are the boomers that have 3,000

[14:59] square foot houses. They can't afford to

[15:01] send their kids to school. I mean,

[15:03] they're really struggling even with the

[15:05] dual income because the interest rates

[15:07] skyrocketed so quickly. And look at

[15:10] the 2000s.

[15:12] I mean, what what does this tell you

[15:14] about the future generation? Like

[15:16] are these younger generations completely

[15:18] screwed because they're loaded up with

[15:19] debt? They can't afford a home that kind

[15:22] of acts as like a little piggy bank if

[15:23] they hold it long-term for 30 years and

[15:25] write it in and pay it off. What do you

[15:27] say to these younger generations who are

[15:30] completely priced out? Or are there is

[15:33] there nothing that they can do?

[15:35] Firstly, I say I'm sorry. And and and

[15:37] because this is horrible and this is not

[15:40] what we want as a country and I think

[15:42] that we're seeing the results of this in

[15:44] increased violence all over the country.

[15:47] Several mass shootings over the weekend

[15:49] in the South. Uh people are hurting. And

[15:52] so, this is this is a terrible thing and

[15:55] I apologize even though I I am

[15:58] was a victim as well, I apologize. And

[16:01] actually, my family was a very early

[16:03] victim during our last bout with

[16:05] inflation and I lost my home to

[16:07] foreclosure when I was nine. So, I get

[16:09] it. And and I want everyone to have

[16:11] shelter because it's it's one of our you

[16:14] know, it's Maslow's need. So, uh you

[16:17] know, I do think there's hope because

[16:20] this cannot sustain. You cannot crush

[16:22] the backs of these younger generations

[16:25] like this. They will get angry. They

[16:27] will take to the streets like they're

[16:28] doing all over the world right now.

[16:31] You're hearing about it all over the

[16:32] world, Gen Z protest. Because we're not

[16:35] the only place in this situation. Right.

[16:38] >> And so, things have to change. And so,

[16:42] and I'm very much in the middle

[16:43] politically and I hate talking about it,

[16:46] but what I would encourage everybody to

[16:47] do is stop listening to what they say

[16:50] and look at what they're doing. And

[16:52] right now, they put the guardrails on

[16:54] this FHA program. Will they pull it back

[16:57] when things get too bad?

[16:59] Uh they might because nobody wants to be

[17:01] that out of favor and there's midterms

[17:02] around the corner. But doing things like

[17:05] this are going to have real impacts. Uh

[17:08] cutting SNAP and Medicaid, like these

[17:12] things are going to have impacts. And

[17:15] so, watch what they're doing versus what

[17:17] they're saying. You know, I think we're

[17:18] probably gearing up for some builder

[17:20] bailout around affordable housing, but

[17:23] that's I mean,

[17:25] again a case of are they really that

[17:27] dumb that they think we don't have

[17:29] enough houses? Or is it that that's the

[17:32] narrative, so that's the story and we're

[17:34] sticking to it and when we have to bail

[17:36] out the builders, that'll be the

[17:38] narrative. Um and we will do affordable

[17:41] building projects. The problem is I

[17:43] think once they get out there on the

[17:44] roads, they're going to see how much is

[17:46] already out there. So, I wouldn't be

[17:48] surprised if, for instance, the

[17:50] government gets in the buying uh the

[17:52] buying of subdivisions business and

[17:54] buying back from PE, actually all those

[17:57] homes they sold at the end of the last

[17:58] crisis. But I say, "Hold on."

[18:01] And while you're waiting, don't make

[18:05] bad decisions. Uh YOLO is one of the

[18:09] worst diseases in our current society

[18:13] because they won't it feels as if the

[18:15] narrative is you'll never be able to

[18:17] afford anything, so just keep spinning.

[18:19] Well, why do they want you to keep

[18:20] spinning?

[18:22] Cuz consumption is 70% of our gross

[18:25] domestic product. And so, they need you

[18:27] to keep spinning. They need you to get

[18:30] into debt. Um but you have options to

[18:33] vote with your dollars. When consumption

[18:36] is that big of a percent of our economy,

[18:39] your buying decisions make a difference.

[18:42] And I think you're seeing that right

[18:43] now, John, where uh buyers are just

[18:46] being like, "You're crazy. I I mean,

[18:48] you're just absolutely crazy. I'm not

[18:49] paying that." I mean, the housing market

[18:51] has been frozen for almost 2 and 1/2

[18:53] years now, really more. And because

[18:56] buyers are saying, "No, thank you. I'm

[18:58] not going to do this." And so, continue

[19:00] to do that because that's the only way

[19:02] that sellers are going to understand.

[19:04] Now, everybody has a different life

[19:06] situation. I'm not I can't give everyone

[19:08] advice. And if you don't have to take on

[19:10] leverage and you can sustain a certain

[19:13] amount of loss, then you know, of course

[19:14] you consider this. But most Americans

[19:17] are not in that boat. And people are

[19:19] afraid for their jobs. We've got layoffs

[19:21] increasing. And so, just know that you

[19:24] do have agency. Don't spend all your

[19:27] money at Starbucks. You know, don't I

[19:29] mean, honestly, one Starbucks a day is

[19:32] one mortgage payment for a year. Like if

[19:34] you just didn't do that, that's and

[19:36] that's not insignificant. I know that a

[19:38] lot of people are like, "Well, yeah, but

[19:40] I'll never get there." You will. It just

[19:43] takes work and just hold on while

[19:45] everybody else is making really bad

[19:47] decisions, hold on to your cash, let it

[19:50] grow, and then you'll be in a place when

[19:53] this market turns as it has to. The only

[19:56] other option is that wages go up and

[19:58] don't cause

[19:59] inflation.

[20:01] And that's I mean that's the only so

[20:03] which

[20:04] wage price spiral is exactly what

[20:06] everybody's terrified of. You know,

[20:08] that's why immigration was allowed

[20:11] because they would needed cheap labor to

[20:13] keep everything going post

[20:15] the last during our last

[20:19] crisis.

[20:20] When we were shut down when we were

[20:22] locked down.

[20:23] Yeah, exactly. Well, I you know, I think

[20:25] that's great advice. You know, get as

[20:26] frugal as possible and you need to save.

[20:29] If you're in these younger generations,

[20:31] you need to be really good at

[20:32] negotiating because you're not going to

[20:34] have a pension. You're not going to have

[20:35] social security. You're not going to

[20:37] have these social safety net kind of

[20:39] handout programs from the government

[20:40] most likely because we're in such a

[20:42] terrible fiscal situation. Uh and in the

[20:45] debt load of the US government, it's

[20:46] unlikely that you're going to get these

[20:48] benefits that the boomers are currently

[20:51] having because they're staying at home

[20:52] in their their houses. They're getting

[20:53] checks delivered, you know, to them and

[20:56] it's a you're not going to have that. So

[20:57] you have to save otherwise you might be

[21:00] working your entire life past your 70s

[21:03] until you die. So if you don't make

[21:05] these changes now, it's it's going to be

[21:07] really painful, you know, work life for

[21:09] you unless you love to work which I

[21:10] don't know most people that I feel like

[21:11] they don't want to work their entire

[21:13] life. They would like to have some sort

[21:14] of golden years. Mhm.

[21:16] Yeah, yeah.

[21:17] That's great advice and as you

[21:19] mentioned, we're going to have a lot of

[21:21] the older generation sadly pass away and

[21:23] then the younger generations come in and

[21:25] I know the stats show about 70% of those

[21:28] sellers

[21:29] of those properties that are inherited

[21:31] go to be sold. Mhm. Now, all of that new

[21:34] inventory has to be absorbed by some

[21:37] sort of buyer and what we're seeing

[21:39] Melody locally,

[21:40] rents are down 15 to 20% just in the

[21:44] last 2 years because people are failing

[21:47] to sell their house or they're

[21:48] inheriting a house. There's someone

[21:50] buying it as a rental. It's coming on as

[21:52] a rental. And we just had like this

[21:54] rental stacking up left and right. And

[21:57] I'll give you an example and I'd love

[21:58] your thoughts on it because we're trying

[22:00] to figure out how do we help these

[22:01] homeowners? There's a a young couple.

[22:03] They're in their 30s. They bought at 360

[22:06] in a new construction community in 2022

[22:08] and they have it listed for 318 now.

[22:12] And the builder is selling them at 275

[22:15] with rate buy downs to the 3%. They

[22:18] don't have any money. They put 20% down,

[22:21] well-to-do people and they have a

[22:23] mortgage of around like 298 or something

[22:26] like that. And the builder selling it

[22:28] for less with the incentives. They have

[22:29] to move for work.

[22:31] What do these people do? And this is

[22:33] what we're talking about like the lock

[22:35] in effect. Like people are just getting

[22:36] locked in and then they look at trying

[22:37] to rent it, right? Cuz that's their

[22:38] initial gut reaction. Hey, I need to

[22:39] rent this. They'd be underwater $800,

[22:42] $900 a month and they would lose their

[22:44] homestead and their insurance would go

[22:46] up because it's a rental property. So

[22:47] your taxes and insurance would go up the

[22:49] minute that you start renting it out. So

[22:51] they're

[22:52] we're trying to help them and there

[22:53] seems to be no solution and we're seeing

[22:56] this nearly every day, one or two calls

[22:58] a day from our brokerage, from our

[23:00] agents. I'm in the situation, what do I

[23:02] do to help these people? Is there a

[23:04] solution or

[23:06] do they just have to bite the bullet and

[23:07] try to short sale it and and find a way

[23:10] out? Do they try to ride it out and just

[23:12] find a way to pay that $800, $900 a

[23:14] month but then they have the repairs on

[23:16] top of that.

[23:17] What do you tell these people who are

[23:19] who are in these communities cuz that is

[23:21] where we're seeing the majority of the

[23:21] distress is around the new construction

[23:24] where it's completely over built.

[23:27] Well, John, this is why in 2023 I I've

[23:30] been pounding the table on this exact

[23:33] scenario. Every city I visit, we talk

[23:35] about this cuz this is exactly what's

[23:37] going to happen or they could turn it

[23:39] around and sell sell it to, you know, a

[23:42] short-term like a long-term rental

[23:45] company like American Homes for Rent or

[23:47] something like that. And suddenly you're

[23:49] next door to a whole bunch of renters

[23:51] when you thought you were going to be

[23:52] and you know what happens to those

[23:53] rental properties. They degrade so

[23:56] quickly. I mean, I see some that are 6

[23:57] months old, they look like they're 5

[23:59] years old. So unfortun- I was just at a

[24:01] conference in Dallas a couple weeks ago

[24:03] and got to be in the room with a large

[24:06] or actually, yeah.

[24:08] One of these institutional investors

[24:10] where they're actually offloading

[24:11] properties and that's another thing

[24:13] that's going to happen in Atlanta and

[24:15] other places where they are they're big.

[24:18] And and also in that conversation we

[24:20] talked about how short sales are

[24:22] exploding all over the country. And so

[24:24] here's what I would say, don't don't

[24:26] chase a a falling knife, right? Like

[24:29] you we don't know how low this is going

[24:31] to go. And so why would you basically

[24:34] add on $800 of expenses each month while

[24:39] home prices continue to probably

[24:40] decline. Right. And and then you're

[24:43] ultimately way underwater. And also

[24:45] let's talk about quality of life. Yes,

[24:47] could you hire a project a property

[24:49] management company but then, you know,

[24:51] that's just another headache on top of

[24:53] it. I know people that have long-term

[24:55] rentals. To me, you have to bite the

[24:57] bullet. You have to short sell it. Get

[24:58] out from under that debt and because

[25:01] that debt is going to be like an

[25:02] albatross around your neck. It's going

[25:04] to cause personal problems. If you're

[25:06] married, money's one of the biggest

[25:08] things that people argue about and so I

[25:11] think you have to just get rid of it. I

[25:13] mean, it if you aren't in kind of a

[25:15] negative cash flow, you might could hold

[25:18] on to it for a little but that equity

[25:20] position you just talked about, I mean,

[25:22] my advice all day would be get just get

[25:25] out of it as fast as possible. Cut your

[25:27] losses.

[25:28] Start over.

[25:30] Save. It's so unfortunate. I wish I

[25:32] could prevent it. I mean, that's

[25:34] that's why I do all of this.

[25:36] Yeah, that's why I do it too. I feel

[25:37] like no one else is really talking about

[25:39] the actual consequences on the ground of

[25:40] what's happening to the day-to-day

[25:42] person and not only that, if they don't

[25:44] get rid of it, rents are still coming

[25:45] down. I mean, they're building phase

[25:47] two, phase three, phase four around the

[25:49] corner in these builders.

[25:51] They're continuing to build which is

[25:53] just mind-boggling to me. They're

[25:54] building entire communities and then

[25:56] they're flipping them over to like

[25:58] American Homes for Rent, Invitation

[26:00] Homes, Progress Homes. They're just

[26:01] buying the entire community and these

[26:03] rentals haven't even come online yet.

[26:05] And so

[26:07] I just don't think real estate has

[26:09] long-term legs for appreciation at least

[26:11] in our area because you can build

[26:13] anywhere.

[26:14] You can build them really affordably and

[26:17] people are looking for lower price

[26:18] everything. So they're going to move to

[26:20] to those areas and maybe if they're

[26:22] working from home half the week, it

[26:23] doesn't matter exactly where they live.

[26:25] They're fine with living outside of the

[26:26] city versus living inside the city. So

[26:28] there's a lot of different preferences

[26:30] there. Now, I want to switch gears to

[26:32] the luxury market because we're starting

[26:34] to see some pretty interesting

[26:36] information come out on the luxury side

[26:38] which we always talk about Melody that

[26:40] perhaps the luxury folks are a little

[26:42] bit more insulated than the dual income

[26:45] workers and things like that. But

[26:47] recently data came out according to uh

[26:50] Redfin and that August low sales of

[26:52] luxury homes dropped to the lowest

[26:53] August levels. And this is like a big

[26:55] argument, right? Oh, we're in a unique

[26:56] area. There's not a lot of inventory.

[26:59] There's nowhere left to build and these

[27:02] houses are still going to sell. It's not

[27:03] a problem. Meanwhile, the data is coming

[27:06] out. It's kind of showing, you know,

[27:08] hey, we're going back to

[27:10] even worse than 2019 levels. What is

[27:13] going on here? Is the narrative

[27:15] >> that we're getting from the media just

[27:16] completely broken over and over again,

[27:18] right? We We have the housing shortage.

[27:20] We're going to continue on this big bull

[27:22] run. Luxury is insulated. The north is

[27:25] insulated. It seems like all of these

[27:26] type of narratives

[27:28] are not reality when you look at the

[27:31] actual data. And so what do you think of

[27:33] this chart?

[27:34] Well, I love it because it shows what

[27:37] I've been talking about. You can look in

[27:40] all of my 80 markets that luxury that's

[27:42] been sitting

[27:43] for a year or more. I mean, how many

[27:45] people do you know John that can afford

[27:47] a $49 million home?

[27:50] Many, right? And so these are these are

[27:52] sitting all over the country. Think

[27:55] about California again.

[27:57] But they're everywhere because guess

[27:59] what? People built these million dollar

[28:01] homes for spec without a buyer.

[28:04] I mean, I talked to several in 23, 24, I

[28:07] talked to several realtors turned, you

[28:09] know, developers or whatever with

[28:11] properties saying in Encinitas for 20

[28:14] million, 30 I'm like, how do you I mean,

[28:16] how do you have the what's to build like

[28:19] that? To build something for spec like

[28:21] that. But you can see it now. I believe

[28:24] I was looking at a recent chart from the

[28:27] University of Michigan consumer

[28:28] sentiment survey and even the super

[28:30] prime are coming down. Their sentiment

[28:32] is because guess what? They're at the

[28:34] end of the LPs in these multi-family

[28:37] deals that are imploding all across the

[28:40] country. They're the investors that

[28:43] bought some of this debt from Tricolor

[28:45] or First Brands or whatever. These These

[28:48] people are also getting hurt right now.

[28:51] It's it's harder because, you know, what

[28:53] what what do we hear

[28:55] breaking news yesterday? Chase

[28:57] blew out earnings, right? Well, of

[28:59] course they didn't mention the provision

[29:01] for loan loss that also increased cuz

[29:03] they know what's coming. They're a bank.

[29:05] They know how they're going to make

[29:07] money through the good times and the bad

[29:09] times, okay?

[29:11] They're they've been through this

[29:12] several times. And so the narrative is

[29:15] just completely false. And it makes

[29:18] everybody think So it made all these

[29:21] developers think that we had a ton more

[29:22] rich people in this country or they

[29:24] thought they would be foreign buyers.

[29:25] But foreign buyers are also in their

[29:27] native countries are suffering. People

[29:29] talk a lot about Canada and how, you

[29:32] know, it's all about Trump and that's

[29:33] why they're not coming here. Well, it's

[29:35] also about what's going on in their

[29:36] economy, what's going on in their

[29:39] housing market. And so foreign buyers,

[29:41] although it kicked up again a little bit

[29:43] this year, that's because it it went

[29:45] through the floor last year. And so

[29:49] this luxury is everywhere and it gives

[29:51] me Golden Coast vibes. If anybody can

[29:53] look at Long Island eat the Hamptons

[29:56] look like before the Great Depression

[29:58] and what it looks like, you know, now

[30:00] very different because you just have so

[30:03] much of this luxury spec out there and

[30:06] you do not have enough people with the

[30:08] money to buy it. So, yeah, it's all

[30:10] false narratives. Yeah, and what happens

[30:13] Melly when the stock market cracks,

[30:14] right? Cuz I mean, we're it seems like

[30:17] we're in all-time highs for the stocks

[30:19] as well and the ratios there like some

[30:21] of the highest ratios we've ever seen

[30:24] in terms of the AI bubble and what

[30:27] happens when that market goes out? Won't

[30:28] that crush luxury as well? Oh, yeah,

[30:31] absolutely. And I think you're probably

[30:33] already seeing So, I think very wealthy

[30:36] investors are a bit smarter or that at

[30:39] least they have some people that know a

[30:42] little bit more, which is why you've

[30:43] seen insider selling like at it just all

[30:47] over the place. And so, they've already

[30:49] kind of pulled back cuz they know April

[30:52] was a big warning sign to them. This

[30:55] recent drawdown was a warning sign to

[30:57] them. What it was for retail and certain

[31:00] gamblers in the market that know how to

[31:02] make money off of it

[31:04] was oh, buy the dip. That's going to pay

[31:07] off. And again, unfortunately, retail

[31:09] will be the bag holders here. But yeah,

[31:11] I think it's already

[31:13] because of what people saw in April,

[31:15] it's already having an impact on the

[31:18] market. Now, the young and dumb

[31:22] are still out there thinking they're

[31:23] rich, but you know, boomers have been

[31:26] through the GFC and and they realize

[31:30] some of them, not all of them.

[31:32] Uh but I think that yes, if this and

[31:35] here we should just say there's so much

[31:36] fraud in all of this. That's the other

[31:38] thing that I think is way worse. We had

[31:40] one Enron.

[31:42] Right? I think we've got multiple at the

[31:44] moment doing like tricolor was doing

[31:48] double pledging, but then you have this

[31:50] round-tripping that is just inherent to

[31:53] AI and and and nobody seems to care, but

[31:56] it will matter. And so, I think to your

[31:58] point, one of the only reasons we

[32:00] haven't seen more significant price

[32:03] declines this year is that people look

[32:05] to the stock market and think, well,

[32:07] surely it can't be that bad. But I would

[32:09] just like to mention one of the reasons

[32:11] I got back into

[32:13] macro was because of what was happening

[32:16] in the stock market when the world was

[32:18] locked down. And I was like, this isn't

[32:20] right. All these businesses are closing,

[32:22] there's bankruptcies, people can't

[32:23] afford their mortgage. And so, yes. And

[32:26] I would also like to remind people that,

[32:28] you know, New Century filed bankruptcy.

[32:30] They were the first kind of big company

[32:32] in 2007. The stock market did not bottom

[32:36] until March of 2009. So, it takes time

[32:40] for these things to wash through the

[32:41] system. So, to your point that is just

[32:44] going to have a huge impact on housing.

[32:47] As but what you'll see there is it won't

[32:49] be motivated anymore. It'll be

[32:51] distressed just fire selling left and

[32:54] right. Yeah, and I want to show you

[32:56] another chart cuz it kind of goes into

[32:57] this of what the sellers' mindsets are,

[32:59] right? If the stock market is fine, they

[33:01] can afford to pull their house off of

[33:03] the market and wait for a better time.

[33:06] But if the stock market starts to tank

[33:07] and they really do need to get out of

[33:09] their house, I expect there to be a ton

[33:10] of inventory to come back on. So, we

[33:12] call this rage quitting or rage

[33:14] canceling here locally. We just termed

[33:16] it ourselves because we're seeing it

[33:18] every single day. The seller lists the

[33:19] house for 2 to 3 weeks, they get no

[33:21] showings cuz it's overpriced, it's

[33:23] completely outdated, they're

[33:24] unrealistic, they won't listen to the

[33:25] realtor. And I know there's a lot of

[33:27] media that says like, oh, like realtors

[33:28] try to push prices higher. Guys, it's

[33:30] nonsense. It's supply and demand and the

[33:33] buyers won't pay the price and we don't

[33:35] have any control over the buyers in the

[33:37] market. They get to decide what they

[33:38] want to do. We help facilitate the

[33:39] transaction.

[33:41] But this is the more withdrawals per

[33:42] year. This data comes from Compass.

[33:43] Withdrawn listings as a percentage of

[33:44] new listings. So, 42.3%

[33:48] which is much higher than prior years,

[33:50] which is crazy. And we expect, you know,

[33:54] if the stock market does crack,

[33:56] something is going to cause it to go

[33:58] down. I mean, it's gone up what? Like

[34:00] 38% since March. Something unheard of.

[34:03] It's crazy and the government seems to

[34:05] think we can continue to push growth and

[34:08] asset growth across the board and it's

[34:11] it seems to me like it's all artificial.

[34:12] If it's if it's government, it's not

[34:14] actual true value creation. But that's

[34:16] allowing these buyers these sellers to

[34:19] pull their properties off the market

[34:21] because they feel like they can wait it

[34:22] out. But I have a feeling that the

[34:24] majority of these withdrawn, if they

[34:25] really do need to sell, which people

[34:27] don't usually list their house unless

[34:28] they're really serious. I mean, do you

[34:30] really want other strangers walking

[34:32] through your house,

[34:33] >> Exactly. cleaning it every week, getting

[34:34] out of your

[34:35] putting your dog in and out? Like

[34:37] they're serious. They just want the

[34:39] price that they want. And I think, you

[34:40] know, my advice to sellers now is like,

[34:42] you need to sell if you really need to

[34:44] sell.

[34:46] Do it now and be realistic about the

[34:48] price because as you said, it doesn't

[34:50] look better next year. Like there is not

[34:52] one Melly, is there one economic

[34:54] indicator that you follow other than

[34:56] maybe interest rates slowing down, but

[34:58] probably for the wrong reason cuz we're

[34:59] having issues with employment. Is there

[35:01] any other indicator other than interest

[35:03] rates that like is pointing to a better

[35:05] market next year that you're seeing out

[35:07] of all the data that you track? No.

[35:09] Okay. I can't find

[35:10] >> And and even interest rates, like we

[35:12] don't know what the bond market's going

[35:14] to do. I mean it could it it is it has

[35:18] been very

[35:21] What's the word? It it just it's

[35:22] refusing to act how everybody wants it

[35:25] to act. And then there's there's all

[35:27] kinds of levers. If this thing

[35:29] accelerates with China, right? They can

[35:33] stop buying

[35:34] the 10-year Treasury. And they've

[35:36] already pulled back. Some say, oh,

[35:37] they're buying it through Cayman. That's

[35:39] probably true. Uh but they could pull

[35:41] that lever at any point and no matter

[35:43] what we do here, no matter what then we

[35:47] are going to be in a situation where

[35:49] that 10-year Treasury stays above 4%.

[35:53] Now, we're waffling. I don't know, we

[35:55] might even be moving below four right

[35:56] now as we did for an hour after Fed

[36:01] after Powell cut rates. And then it went

[36:04] right back up to that four floor.

[36:06] Uh so, we don't know. So, I don't even

[36:08] think rates are positive story. It's,

[36:11] you know, it's been the promise for the

[36:12] last 3 years, but it's not happening.

[36:15] And so, who did we are in an environment

[36:18] now where so many things could one

[36:21] little It's like a little

[36:22] little pinprick from China.

[36:25] Boom.

[36:26] I don't see anything coming for housing,

[36:28] nor did I in uh in 2022 at the end of

[36:33] you know, I could tell we were at the

[36:34] end of this bubble or you know, the the

[36:37] run-up and that's when housing peaked.

[36:39] And then from there, I I said this to

[36:42] her I used to always do weekly lunch and

[36:44] learns, you know, where I would talk

[36:45] like this to the company and I said to

[36:48] everyone around me, I was like, who is

[36:51] coming to buy now? Like why do you think

[36:54] housing is going to right?

[36:55] >> Yeah. And and by the end of that

[36:56] conversation, every one of them good got

[36:58] it. And they of course, we were all

[37:00] subject to the cheerleading that never

[37:02] stops and in the industry itself. But

[37:05] so, the fact that people can't get it

[37:08] means that there's something fishy going

[37:10] on, you know, because this is there's

[37:12] nothing coming for housing. What? Unless

[37:14] they open the immigration again. I mean

[37:17] how politically palatable is that right

[37:20] now? So, yeah.

[37:23] Look at the Fed's balance sheet. I mean,

[37:25] could the Fed go in and go purchase a

[37:27] bunch more of at mortgage-backed

[37:28] securities where they're already

[37:29] manipulating interest rates so low

[37:32] already? Do you see the Fed stepping in

[37:35] and starting to buy mortgage-backed

[37:37] securities to try to keep this propped

[37:39] up? Because I mean, there's going to be

[37:40] issues too. If the housing market really

[37:42] does crack the way that I see it

[37:43] playing, the boomers are going to lose

[37:45] the majority of their wealth right upon

[37:46] retirement. That's a huge problem for

[37:49] them. So, like the government has to

[37:50] decide if they're going to bail out the

[37:51] boomers or they're going to let the

[37:53] market correct and let the next

[37:55] generation have a chance at building

[37:56] wealth.

[37:58] Right. So,

[37:59] the Fed bought MBS in 2009. It didn't

[38:02] make a dang bit of difference. Okay?

[38:06] And by the way, in this last purchase

[38:08] operation, they rates got the lowest and

[38:12] then they started their way back up and

[38:13] then Fed was still buying. They bought

[38:15] 700 billion more and rates were going up

[38:19] the entire time. Okay? Cuz that spread

[38:22] is not uh again, the bond market is in

[38:25] control, no matter what anybody says.

[38:28] Okay? And most recently, it was like,

[38:30] oh, if Fannie and Freddie go private,

[38:32] they can buy MBS. Well, that would be a

[38:33] surefire way for them to die as

[38:35] organizations

[38:37] us having to come in as taxpayers again.

[38:40] So, I

[38:41] I think that people just don't

[38:43] understand

[38:45] there there's really no other cards

[38:47] left. I come

[38:48] we are moving toward a command and

[38:50] control economy where the much more

[38:53] likely income or outcome is that there's

[38:56] some sort of state

[38:58] program

[39:00] housing where they sell you the home. I

[39:02] mean, it's not even like So, the Fed I

[39:06] think I think most people understand

[39:09] that the Fed became irrelevant in

[39:11] September of 2024. They really did. Now,

[39:14] where are they relevant? To your point

[39:17] exactly, these people are going to be

[39:18] retiring right as everything is going

[39:20] down. Well, guess what they might have

[39:22] to do?

[39:24] They might have to sell their stocks.

[39:26] Right. Because and so, I mean, this

[39:28] whole thing is you can't look across a

[39:31] system and see something that's just

[39:32] standing out there shiny and is going to

[39:35] come in and save everybody. Every single

[39:38] one of these choices has real negative

[39:41] outcomes like what you're saying, and

[39:43] not just impacting the younger

[39:45] generation, impacting the boomers, too.

[39:48] And

[39:48] I think that we're kind of we're out of

[39:50] options, and we've got to rinse out the

[39:53] speculation from the system. Housing has

[39:56] to become about shelter again. I'm

[39:58] looking forward to the day that housing

[40:00] is so boring, I don't have to talk about

[40:02] it anymore,

[40:03] and I can talk I can go write fiction

[40:05] novels or do something like that.

[40:07] Yeah, I I don't know if that'll ever

[40:09] happen. It seems like it's the most

[40:10] manipulated thing. I've been studying it

[40:12] since 2009 myself, and it seems like

[40:15] it's just constantly being manipulated

[40:17] up and down through interest rates,

[40:19] through incentives for builders.

[40:22] Everything Every time the government

[40:23] gets involved with everything, it

[40:24] creates these unintended consequences

[40:26] that show up 20 years later, and there's

[40:28] a generation that pays the price for it,

[40:30] and another part and and there's a

[40:31] winner and a loser from these decisions

[40:34] that they make versus just letting the

[40:35] market be an actual free market. I feel

[40:37] like we'd be in a much better position

[40:39] >> Yeah. in a free market. Like, what would

[40:42] real interest rates be if we didn't have

[40:43] all these mortgage-backed securities

[40:45] that were purchased from our government?

[40:46] What would it look like? Would it be 10

[40:48] 12% and prices would be 30 40% lower

[40:51] already, and we wouldn't have this

[40:53] affordability crisis

[40:55] that is causing so much issue, and then

[40:57] there would be less speculation because

[40:59] there would be less build-up of equity

[41:01] in these homes that people think is kind

[41:02] of phantom equity at this time at this

[41:04] point because until you sell, that's not

[41:06] real money.

[41:07] On the first time. cost to buy and sell,

[41:09] which people don't talk about enough, is

[41:11] incredibly high. I mean, you're paying

[41:15] um 6% going in, you're paying 6% going

[41:17] out, so you need to have this your house

[41:19] appreciate on top of the repairs more

[41:21] than 12%.

[41:23] And that's going to take at least

[41:25] generally in a normal market 5 years. In

[41:27] a down market, I mean, it could take

[41:28] more than a decade or so. I think a lot

[41:30] of these people they think it's a great

[41:31] investment, but it's all about what you

[41:33] buy the asset for, and right now it's

[41:36] too high. It's too high, and I fear for

[41:38] my friends who are getting in, and

[41:40] they're getting tricked by the builders.

[41:41] And they're saying, "Oh, I'm going to

[41:42] get a 3% rate." And they're getting the

[41:44] affordability. They'll never be able to

[41:45] sell that house because when they sell

[41:46] it, the next person will will have to

[41:49] get you know, they'll have a 6% rate

[41:51] instead of a 3% rate, so they're going

[41:52] to be locked in, or they're going to

[41:54] have to reduce the price by a couple

[41:55] hundred thousand dollars

[41:57] uh to make it competitive with where the

[41:58] new market's at. So, we're getting the

[42:00] word out. We're trying to educate the

[42:02] consumer on what their options are. And

[42:04] by the way, in a lot of areas because

[42:06] rents have been dropping, you can

[42:07] negotiate your rents and it's great

[42:10] >> while you wait this thing out and what

[42:12] this playing out. Like, when are we

[42:14] going to start seeing the distress where

[42:16] the housing wire people can no longer

[42:19] ignore reality? They I mean, obviously,

[42:21] they shouldn't be ignoring it now, but

[42:23] it seems like this is pretty obvious

[42:24] that it's coming and it's headed this

[42:26] way. When do you think they will finally

[42:28] get it and it'll really start showing up

[42:30] in the data?

[42:31] Honestly,

[42:34] I didn't believe that we would need to

[42:36] get to foreclosures for this stuff to

[42:38] play out due to the increased cost, but

[42:41] the narrative has just been so strong,

[42:43] but I think by Q2 of 2026,

[42:46] we are going to have material

[42:47] foreclosures. We're already up year over

[42:48] year. Don't ever be fooled by the

[42:51] month-over-month movement because

[42:53] um what happens in loss mitigation is

[42:56] somebody goes on a workout, they fail

[42:58] out, they get back on, they fail out

[43:00] again, they get back on, and so it's

[43:02] always this push and pull. You've got to

[43:04] look at the accumulation.

[43:06] And I believe Black Knight last month

[43:08] said we were foreclosures were up 17%

[43:11] year over year. It's actually more than

[43:12] that. Black Knight does not have the

[43:14] number three largest specialty servicer

[43:16] on its platform. So, they can't give you

[43:19] foreclosure numbers. You know, Adam it

[43:21] does not have all of the information,

[43:23] either. And so, I think though by Q2

[43:26] 2026,

[43:28] we're it's going to be clear, and we're

[43:30] going to have material foreclosures

[43:32] unless, you know, again, some other

[43:34] government intervention or and often the

[43:37] state AGs will also get involved cuz

[43:39] there's going to be all kinds of

[43:41] accusations like last time.

[43:42] Foreclosure's a dirty word

[43:45] Right.

[43:45] >> media, and I've already seen several

[43:47] articles that look like attempts to kind

[43:50] of smear that process again. But I can

[43:53] tell you, I was recently helping someone

[43:55] on a case,

[43:57] and I you know, what did happen uh So,

[44:00] Dodd-Frank got its teeth pulled with uh

[44:02] on the origination side when they

[44:04] removed that debt-to-income threshold.

[44:06] However, on the servicing side, no teeth

[44:08] were pulled.

[44:10] It is so strict what you have to do that

[44:13] I was just hired someone wanted me to

[44:15] look at a case for them of wrongful

[44:16] foreclosure, and after 3 hours, I could

[44:19] point give them a hundred examples of

[44:21] how their clients knew exactly what was

[44:23] going on, even in hearing it in the the

[44:26] phone call. Uh and so, they're going to

[44:28] try that again. Uh it'll make it dirty.

[44:31] So, there's going to be things that slow

[44:32] this down, but I do believe Q2 2026, and

[44:36] honestly, defaults are going to rise

[44:39] from here, no matter what calendar

[44:42] effect Black Knight thinks is causing

[44:44] the problem, which

[44:45] is just

[44:46] ludicrous, and they know it. They know

[44:48] it. Um so, uh yeah, I think

[44:51] barring anything else, that's when we're

[44:53] really going to understand the problem.

[44:55] And it'll be In many ways, they've

[44:57] already pivoted. It's just been a soft

[45:00] pivot. You can watch them, and they're

[45:02] softly pivoting. They'll get there. Of

[45:05] course, there has to be some

[45:07] They'll get to blame it on the stock

[45:08] market, or they'll get to blame it on

[45:10] tariffs, or whatever, but this was this

[45:12] was always our path since the little

[45:15] boom began in 2020. Yeah, exactly. And

[45:19] we're already seeing it show up, right?

[45:20] In autos and credit card delinquencies

[45:23] and all this kind of stuff. And so, the

[45:24] last shoe to drop, it seems like, is

[45:26] housing. So, we kind of see the stress

[45:29] elsewhere for now, and kind of like when

[45:31] interest rates when the Fed raises

[45:33] interest rates, you're not going to see

[45:34] the impact for 6 to 8 months. It seems

[45:35] like, okay, we're seeing the car in the

[45:37] in the

[45:38] uh other delinquencies. Okay, we're not

[45:40] going to see housing for another 6 to 8

[45:42] months. And of course, the FHA workout

[45:43] program changing and things like that.

[45:45] So, all right, guys, Q2 of next year is

[45:49] when we need to revisit this

[45:50] conversation and see where things are

[45:52] at. I am in complete agreement with

[45:54] Melody and her prediction and her time

[45:56] frame because we're seeing it on the

[45:58] ground. I mean, in Florida, we're kind

[45:59] of seeing it I feel like early.

[46:01] Always. Always.

[46:04] Highly speculative. I think about 35% of

[46:06] the purchases over the last 5 years were

[46:09] from

[46:10] speculators, right? The Invitation

[46:12] Homes, Progress Homes, all this kind of

[46:13] stuff. They boosted the prices up so

[46:14] high, they priced out the local

[46:16] population. The local population hasn't

[46:19] been able to catch up in terms of wages

[46:20] and productivity, and have just

[46:22] completely just been priced out, and now

[46:24] there's no one really left. Like you

[46:26] said, who is the next buyer of these

[46:29] assets, and we're not sure. And we think

[46:32] the only way that the buyers really come

[46:34] back in is when prices come down to a

[46:36] point where it starts competing with

[46:38] what people can rent.

[46:40] My models show a 31 to 42% decrease from

[46:45] October 2022, which is when it was the

[46:48] peak here locally in Florida. And we're

[46:50] already down 15% locally. I know a lot

[46:52] of people refuse to acknowledge the data

[46:54] Exactly what Yeah, I don't understand

[46:55] why people can't get to reality. I think

[46:58] they just rely their their income relies

[47:00] on them sharing this narrative that

[47:02] things are great, and they'll continue

[47:03] to move forward, and they don't have any

[47:04] standards, and they're scared that their

[47:06] income's drive drying up, and so they're

[47:08] willing to say whatever they need to say

[47:09] to get the sale. I think that's the

[47:10] wrong way to do business.

[47:12] And but that's why we see a lot of

[47:14] people buying at probably, in my

[47:16] opinion, and I'd love to hear what your

[47:17] thoughts are before we hop here,

[47:19] is this the worst time to buy ever in

[47:22] history, or was it like 23 24, or is it

[47:26] right now?

[47:28] Yeah, I think

[47:30] probably

[47:31] starting July 2022, and maybe even

[47:35] earlier, was the worst time to buy in

[47:39] history. I mean, and honestly, what

[47:41] you're seeing in the mortgage vintages

[47:43] 21, 22, 23 are the ones Yes. Um so,

[47:47] really, I I think the last good time was

[47:49] probably some maybe maybe in March of

[47:51] 2020, to be real honest with you.

[47:54] And maybe it was even 2019, but it is

[47:57] very bad, you know, um these past few

[47:59] years, and so I think this is

[48:02] definitely, if not the worst, it is a

[48:04] really bad time to buy, especially

[48:08] because of those demographics. Yeah, and

[48:10] I have a builder buddy who's like,

[48:12] "Well, it was only like 3 or 4 years

[48:13] that it was really a bad time to buy."

[48:15] And I was like, "Yes, but they were

[48:16] buying at double the rate, like nearly

[48:17] double the rate." It went from like 4

[48:19] million home sales to like 7 million

[48:21] annual, and you had that for a couple of

[48:23] years, these elevated number of sales.

[48:25] So, it is like a lot of people. You're

[48:27] talking, you know, 20 million purchases

[48:30] that are in this type of time frame

[48:32] that's really going to be painful. Um

[48:36] So, Melody, any final thoughts before we

[48:37] hop off here?

[48:39] Yeah, I'd like to share a couple of

[48:41] references. I think I've shared them

[48:42] with you before, but Bubble in the Sun,

[48:44] Swamp Peddlers, two great books to

[48:46] really talk about these cycles. As well

[48:48] as as you mentioned interest rates and

[48:51] kind of what we've seen the last 40

[48:52] years, which is not what it uh Since

[48:55] time immemorial, we've charged interest

[48:57] you

[48:58] before we could even write, and so

[49:01] earliest forms of writing show that

[49:05] It's called The Price of Time by uh

[49:07] Edward Chancellor. I recommend that to

[49:09] everyone because I think that we get we

[49:12] get locked in this recency bias, and we

[49:15] think things can't happen because they

[49:17] haven't happened in the last 40 years,

[49:19] but that's that's not time. So, those

[49:21] would be my recommendations. And

[49:23] finally, say no to uh debt slavery.

[49:25] Leverage is a killer, like quite

[49:28] literally. If you heard what happened

[49:30] this last crypto drops, a young man

[49:32] killed himself in his Lamborghini. Like,

[49:34] these are real-world consequences, and

[49:37] you need to be careful out there. So,

[49:38] just say no to debt slavery right now,

[49:41] especially when we're in this kind of

[49:42] economic environment. Yeah, and the

[49:45] gambling, too. There's like probably 10

[49:47] million males day trading every single

[49:50] day and if they just And most of them

[49:52] lose like 92% of people lose it all. So,

[49:54] don't try to get this quick

[49:56] get-rich-quick stuff. Stay focused on

[49:59] the day-to-day, cut your expenses, be

[50:01] frugal, be really strategic on when you

[50:03] purchase, what you purchase. And the

[50:05] good news is you can follow Melody and

[50:07] I'm sure when the time makes sense to

[50:09] purchase,

[50:11] you're going to be shouting it from the

[50:12] rooftops. I'm going to be shouting it

[50:13] from the rooftops. And both of us will

[50:14] probably be purchasing. So, we will keep

[50:17] you updated on what the market is doing

[50:20] and what we're doing and how we see

[50:22] things. And of course, this isn't

[50:23] financial advice. You make your own

[50:24] decisions. However, we're going to share

[50:26] what we're doing and you can decide what

[50:28] you can do from there. But Melody, this

[50:29] has been fantastic. Thank you for the

[50:31] advice as always. Thanks for getting the

[50:33] word out of what's going on. We need

[50:34] more people like you who are willing to

[50:36] share what's really going on on the

[50:38] ground and actually traveling around and

[50:39] seeing what is happening around the

[50:42] country because if you lived through

[50:44] Melody's eyes and saw what she sees and

[50:47] you see what I see when I walk out the

[50:49] door every single day. I see an

[50:50] apartment complex being built on every

[50:51] street corner, you would understand

[50:54] because you don't Sometimes you can't

[50:56] believe it until you see it. And once

[50:58] you see it, you can't unsee all of these

[51:00] like fake communities that have no one

[51:02] in them. And it's coming and it's just a

[51:04] matter of time until it plays out as

[51:06] Melody said. So, thank you as always for

[51:08] for being willing to contribute to to

[51:09] everybody here.

[51:11] Well, thank you so much for inviting me

[51:12] and it has been great to meet and know

[51:14] you and get that local intel. It's very

[51:17] important. So, thank you again for

[51:18] having me. Yep, thanks. And so, if you

[51:20] want to follow Melody, I do. I subscribe

[51:22] to her Substack. Go to her Substack,

[51:24] subscribe and it's money very well

[51:27] spent. You're going to get inside tips

[51:28] of what she sees happening on the ground

[51:30] and she has access to data that a lot of

[51:32] people don't have access to. So, thank

[51:34] you again, Melody, and we'll see you

[51:35] next time.

Jon Brooks
ArtistJon Brooks

Jon Brooks teaches Stoicism as a daily practice — not as philosophy you read about, but as something you train, the way you'd train a skill in the gym or on the mat.

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Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

According to market analysts, yes—potentially worse. While the 2008 crisis was driven by private subprime lending at ~7% of the market, today government-backed subprime (mainly FHA) has grown to 13-14%, and non-QM lending already shows ~12% delinquencies. The difference is that systemic intervention already propped the market up, so any new stress will find fewer policy levers available.
Builders offering steep buydowns and pricing below resale homes are signaling inventory gluts and weakening forward sales. When they can't move units at profitable prices, they're desperate for cash flow. This pricing below existing inventory is a classic sign of overbuilding and waning demand, not confidence.
Between 2025 and 2035, approximately 15.6 million boomers will pass, with another 25 million between 2035 and 2050. As the largest cohort of home-owners, their eventual estate sales and downsizing will flood the market with supply at the exact moment first-time homebuyer participation is at 40-year lows—creating severe supply-demand imbalance.
No. The shortage narrative was challenged in January 2023 and has since proven inaccurate. Population growth is at replacement level, birth rates are below replacement, and the market has been driven by speculation and investor purchases, not primary-residence demand. Sales are at 1995 levels despite 20% population growth.
Homeowners in this position face limited options: hold cash and hope for rate cuts, or consider a short sale before conditions deteriorate further. A short sale has credit consequences but can prevent deeper losses. Consulting qualified professionals about state-specific deficiency judgment risks is essential.
Structural conflict of interest: media platforms like HousingWire are financed by homebuilders and lenders; the National Association of Realtors benefits from transaction volume; real estate agents' income depends on sales. When the entire information ecosystem is funded by parties profiting from rising volume and prices, the incentive to report weakness is nearly zero.
No. While luxury may decline slower than mid-market, it doesn't decouple. When middle-market homes stall in value, it blocks the entire wealth ladder—someone can't trade up from a $400k to $600k home if theirs didn't appreciate, which affects the $800k buyer above them, and so on.

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