Transcript
[0:00] So Melody, the market has been changing
[0:03] rapidly here on the ground. Are we
[0:04] headed towards another 2008 type of
[0:07] housing crisis going into the next few
[0:09] years?
[0:11] Sure. So, you know, I think I just want
[0:13] to contextualize some of this in terms
[0:16] of
[0:17] what happened in the last crisis. You
[0:19] really had a little subprime bubble that
[0:22] burst, but it didn't bring down the
[0:24] financial system by itself. It was
[0:27] really about the collateral being
[0:29] pledged across the system and when you
[0:30] have an issue
[0:32] in liquidity like what we're seeing
[0:34] right now at Tricolor First Brands this
[0:37] what's brewing in the auto sect sector,
[0:40] but what's really brewing in the private
[0:42] credit markets. That's what ultimately
[0:45] will create the credit crisis that was
[0:48] 2008.
[0:49] From a housing market perspective, yes,
[0:52] we are seeing some very similar things.
[0:55] They just have new names.
[0:57] And so for instance, like
[1:00] government subprime is a thing.
[1:02] We had FHA which as I'm sure you know
[1:05] gentlemen of course and your viewers
[1:07] probably do as well. But quickly this
[1:09] was a program initially meant for first
[1:11] time home buyers where very low down
[1:13] payment credit scores that could go as
[1:15] low as 580 with compensating factors
[1:18] things like this. That market was about
[1:20] 7% last time. It has now doubled. It's
[1:24] around 13 to 14%. So it's a much bigger
[1:27] deal.
[1:28] And so you kind of saw private and I
[1:30] think what's important people always
[1:32] talk about the banks, right? Well, what
[1:34] happened is the banks kind of scaled
[1:36] back from lending. They kind of got out
[1:38] of the game.
[1:40] And so these non-banks have taken over.
[1:42] But most of the market is in some sort
[1:45] of government agency is government
[1:48] agency backed. You know, almost 85% of
[1:50] it.
[1:51] But you have a little of the 3% that is
[1:55] um
[1:56] what we call non-qualified mortgage or
[1:58] this private it's already around 12%
[2:01] delinquent. And so you're looking at
[2:03] about 15% of the market that's over 10%
[2:06] delinquent right now as it is. But it's
[2:08] being masked by the larger books with
[2:10] Fannie and Freddie. So
[2:13] essentially what most people don't
[2:15] realize as well is that the actual
[2:16] foreclosure was not really driven by
[2:19] subprime. It was driven when the prime
[2:21] got in trouble after the credit crisis.
[2:25] The difference here is that even those
[2:28] prime books are not as firm as people
[2:31] think because credit scores were
[2:34] inflated, right? And so that's a big
[2:36] component of these automated
[2:38] underwriting services. And what we're
[2:41] going to see pretty soon here and I
[2:42] think we're already seeing it John. I
[2:44] I've just looked at my client books for
[2:46] September. 30 plus delinquency increased
[2:49] significantly.
[2:51] Industry wide we only have August
[2:53] numbers right now.
[2:55] Which they said increase, but they
[2:56] blamed it on the calendar which doesn't
[2:58] make any sense.
[2:59] Not if you know mortgage not if you know
[3:01] borrower behavior. So I know you asked a
[3:04] simple question, but there's you know,
[3:06] is it is it going to be like 2008? I
[3:09] think it's important that we understand
[3:10] the differences and where the stress is
[3:12] going to occur.
[3:14] But in essence, I think it's going to be
[3:16] worse than 2008 for a variety of
[3:19] reasons.
[3:21] We've overbuilt. That's again. And you
[3:25] know, the consumer is just kind of
[3:27] tapped out and we also have already had
[3:30] GFC style intervention in the housing
[3:32] market. That we have any delinquency
[3:35] right now is should be concerning to
[3:37] everyone. And as you know, those
[3:40] guardrails went on that FHA program
[3:41] October 1st. Um
[3:44] So this is you know, stop me when you if
[3:47] there's a thread you want to pull cuz it
[3:48] it's a very complicated picture.
[3:51] But in essence, yes, we we've got a
[3:54] housing crisis brewing. Right. And I
[3:58] love that message and I see it too
[3:59] because I'm in real estate on the
[4:00] day-to-day on the ground. So what you're
[4:02] seeing at the high level we're seeing
[4:04] show up. Though I'm seeing on websites
[4:06] like HousingWire and these other people,
[4:08] they're saying we're about to go on the
[4:09] largest bull run ever in history. What
[4:12] are they missing because it doesn't make
[4:14] sense to me why they're pushing this
[4:16] narrative. Do you have any commentary on
[4:18] why they think that the market's going
[4:20] to continue forever?
[4:22] No. And you know, my original piece in
[4:26] HousingWire in January of 2023
[4:29] I challenged the housing inventory um
[4:33] shortage narrative. Yeah. I was the only
[4:35] one of a group of people um and of
[4:39] course they didn't take me very
[4:40] seriously, but they were also very
[4:42] surprised when inventory started to
[4:44] grow. And now they're just there's a
[4:48] debate I did with Logan that I think
[4:50] everyone should from HousingWire should
[4:51] check out. It was hosted by Eric
[4:54] Bosmajian.
[4:55] And you know, they they seem to believe
[4:59] that with dual income houses which we've
[5:02] had since the 70s by the way.
[5:05] Um
[5:06] It's somehow we're going to deal with
[5:09] this affordability crisis. The problem
[5:11] is we've got the lowest sales last year
[5:14] since 1995 and we've increased
[5:16] population by over 20%. That doesn't And
[5:19] by the way, it looks as if we were also
[5:22] lending to the immigrants. I mean that
[5:24] that just came across X Twitter or
[5:26] something I've been wanting to get my
[5:28] hands on that
[5:29] data. So I mean it's just insanity for
[5:33] us to talk about how and then we're
[5:36] facing these large negative demographic
[5:38] trends. We're not having babies. We're
[5:41] not replacement rate. The boomers and I
[5:44] think I saw this also in your yeah, in
[5:47] these slides. You know, 15.6 million
[5:50] will leave us between 2025 and 2035 over
[5:53] 25 million between 2035 and 2050. And so
[5:57] the demand is just not going to be
[5:59] there. But what most people don't
[6:01] realize is that the housing market has
[6:02] been about speculation for a very long
[6:04] time probably since the late 80s and
[6:07] about investor purchases, you know, to
[6:09] do long-term rental or short-term
[6:11] rental.
[6:12] And it's not about first time home
[6:13] buyers lowest first time home buyers on
[6:15] record since they started tracking the
[6:18] 80s last year. So this market is all
[6:21] about housing speculation and I think
[6:23] that they largely missed that. Um
[6:27] Is that on purpose? Are they missing the
[6:29] demographics on purpose? You know, I
[6:32] think it's in their vested interest to
[6:34] keep the narrative going and certainly
[6:36] the National Association of Realtors who
[6:39] you know, they've got the lockdown
[6:41] on all this data and it based on my deep
[6:46] dives very deep dives into that data.
[6:48] These are not real time
[6:51] numbers sales figures. These are
[6:53] actually modeled results. And that model
[6:56] is very biased. And so what are they
[6:59] missing? I think they're just afraid
[7:01] that their paychecks going to go away.
[7:04] And they don't really care about Jane
[7:06] and Joe out there who are trying to find
[7:09] a home and I think you know, I was
[7:10] saying this to someone else earlier
[7:12] today is that even as an influencer on
[7:14] the very small scale that I'm on. I take
[7:17] my job very seriously. I know that
[7:19] people listen to me and they make big
[7:21] decisions based on what I'm saying and
[7:23] that's terrifying. I don't think these
[7:25] guys are terrified at all. They don't
[7:27] care. And so
[7:29] that's John I mean I really don't know
[7:31] the answer. Either they're
[7:33] not bright or they're doing it on
[7:35] purpose. Right. And of course they're
[7:37] likely being financed by homebuilders
[7:40] and mortgage lenders who need to push
[7:42] the narrative that the market's going to
[7:43] continue forever to try to convince the
[7:45] next buyer to get in at the highest
[7:47] price to fill them out. And so there's a
[7:49] massive conflict of interest from people
[7:51] who are being paid to create data and
[7:53] charts to share a narrative just like
[7:55] most news sources which is why I think
[7:56] the majority of people now are going on
[7:59] YouTube. They're following you. They're
[8:00] following your Substack. They want to
[8:02] you know, talk with independent
[8:03] reporting sources that they trust more
[8:05] than the media because what they're
[8:07] seeing on the ground, right? When
[8:08] they're driving around town and they see
[8:10] you know, 15 for sale signs in their
[8:12] neighborhood, but they see on
[8:13] HousingWire that we're about to go on a
[8:15] 25 year bull run. It like to them the
[8:17] common sense it just doesn't add up to
[8:19] them. However, I will ask you this
[8:20] Melody. There are regional differences.
[8:23] Oh yeah.
[8:23] >> And I know that they point to the
[8:25] differences. Well, you know, the South
[8:27] is one area, the north is one area. Will
[8:30] will it eventually this kind of activity
[8:34] that we're seeing depressed is basically
[8:36] depressed here in Florida. I can give
[8:37] you a bunch of examples. But will this
[8:39] type of effect that we're seeing in
[8:41] Florida happen in the northeast? Will it
[8:42] happen in these other markets across the
[8:44] country or are they completely insulated
[8:46] for other reasons?
[8:48] Like you say, you know, we hear all the
[8:50] time, you know, real estate is local and
[8:52] it absolutely is.
[8:54] That's why I track 85 markets and each
[8:56] of them has a different set of problems.
[8:59] You know, so California
[9:01] did a lot of building in certain areas
[9:04] by the way, but couldn't do as much and
[9:06] say LA, but they lost 300,000 people. So
[9:10] you know, all of these things so the so
[9:12] right now what's happening is is just as
[9:14] you rightly point point out, you know,
[9:16] we've got this big outsize impact in
[9:18] Florida and Texas where they just went
[9:21] gangbusters building and you know, what
[9:24] I saw on the road still makes me
[9:25] nauseous when I think about it because
[9:27] you know that many of those subdivisions
[9:29] will have to be bulldozed. And that's
[9:31] somebody put money into that. so it's
[9:33] going to be a lot of loss. Yeah. And so
[9:37] this this is I mean my favorite thing to
[9:39] do is to actually do the listings plus
[9:42] the Airbnb map cuz you can see that this
[9:46] is an infestation. It's an infestation.
[9:49] That's like if you've ever studied
[9:51] disease and how it travels, that is that
[9:54] is what this is. So they have a very
[9:57] specific um
[9:59] set of issues. And by the way, they
[10:01] didn't have the
[10:02] the population growth that everybody
[10:04] thought.
[10:05] Um it was more a temporary short-term
[10:07] boom for all those people coming to
[10:09] build those houses, plus the supporting
[10:11] of that very part-time short-term uh
[10:14] kind of
[10:16] industry. Cuz when the builders leave,
[10:18] so do all those adjacent services.
[10:21] But now you got to take the Midwest,
[10:23] okay? Um so, we've talked about the
[10:25] West. I mean, cuz many parts of the area
[10:27] they also built like crazy. California
[10:30] just has to be one where they built like
[10:31] crazy in Riverside, but then in the big
[10:34] cities they lost a ton of their
[10:36] residents. Uh so, let's take the
[10:37] Midwest. Um this time last year people
[10:40] were still piling into the Midwest for
[10:42] speculation because they would watch
[10:43] analysts like me or Ivy Zelman uh saying
[10:47] things like, "Well, you know, the
[10:49] Midwest still has relatively cheap
[10:51] housing prices." And I've had this
[10:53] argument with investors on Twitter where
[10:56] they're like, "Well, it's so low
[10:57] compared to everywhere else." I'm like,
[10:59] "Yeah, the household median income is
[11:00] $30,000." Relative income. Like who who
[11:04] who? And and often what happens, John,
[11:06] is it'll be like, "Oh, a data center's
[11:08] coming, you know, like a semiconductor
[11:10] plant. Uh we're going to have 3,000
[11:12] jobs." Okay, I've tracked many of these
[11:15] projects. Most of them don't happen.
[11:18] If they do happen, it ends up being like
[11:20] 20 jobs. Or it ends up being like in
[11:22] Phoenix where they had to hire people
[11:24] from Taiwan because there was nobody
[11:27] skilled enough to work there. Um or at
[11:29] least that's what they said. And so,
[11:31] these promised jobs never happen. And
[11:32] so, out in Ohio, there were some
[11:35] semiconductor plants that were going to
[11:36] happen. And so, investors just went
[11:39] bananas buying all these things up,
[11:41] swooping all of the inventory off the
[11:43] market. Well, guess what?
[11:45] Just like in the South, just like in the
[11:46] West, the inventory started growing as
[11:49] people realized, "Oh, I can't sell this
[11:51] house for $100,000 more in the middle of
[11:53] nowhere, Ohio." Yep, that's right,
[11:55] buddy. You can't. So, uh inventory is
[11:58] starting to grow non-seasonally there,
[12:01] far out pacing every other region. Um
[12:05] and you've got price cuts. You've got
[12:07] motivated distressed selling.
[12:09] Indianapolis, Kansas City, Cincinnati.
[12:12] Uh prices are coming down. So, it's
[12:14] starting in the Midwest now as that
[12:16] inventory accumulates. The Northeast.
[12:18] The Northeast is old
[12:21] and they have the worst demographics.
[12:24] They have the highest amount of
[12:25] unaffordability.
[12:27] And you take somewhere like Boston where
[12:30] because they weren't getting tax revenue
[12:32] from commercial real estate anymore cuz
[12:34] it's empty,
[12:35] uh they decided to tax their residences
[12:39] instead. And so, you know, as these
[12:42] folks kind of age out as too cuz of the
[12:45] demographic and here's where people
[12:48] get confused cuz often they'll be like,
[12:50] "Well, it's not that old there." Okay,
[12:52] well, here's the other problem.
[12:54] Look at your owner occupancy.
[12:56] Um look at that rate because what
[12:59] happens in a lot of these big cities is
[13:00] you have investors that own rental
[13:03] properties and those could be
[13:04] institutional investors
[13:06] or mom and pop investors. And mom and
[13:08] pop investors are the biggest, but you
[13:10] have a whole bunch of people that own in
[13:12] the Northeast. Um a whole bunch of
[13:14] people are then, of course, renting, but
[13:17] those renters can't afford to purchase
[13:20] those homes. And so, as these boomers,
[13:23] as we talked about, who own the majority
[13:25] of the homes, have to sell these homes
[13:27] or as they pass, which I'm helping
[13:30] several people with inherited properties
[13:32] right now that are having a terrible
[13:34] time,
[13:35] then you're going to have more
[13:36] inventory. So, all you really need to do
[13:38] is crack open one of these markets and
[13:40] look at those factors and you will see
[13:42] that the Northeast is also in for a
[13:44] world of hurt. And it really it comes
[13:47] down to demographics
[13:49] and affordability. I know that was a
[13:51] lot, but it's nowhere
[13:54] are you going to have one neighborhood
[13:56] that does better than others? Sure.
[13:57] Sure. A lot of this has been on the back
[14:01] of what I'll call bezel, which is the
[14:03] people with the Porsches, the people
[14:05] with the Lamborghinis, the boats, all of
[14:07] this. That's all been bought on
[14:09] leverage, so don't be surprised
[14:12] when your neighbor, who you thought was
[14:13] super wealthy, the for sale sign goes
[14:16] up.
[14:17] Yeah, we're already seeing that across
[14:19] the board. And nobody was actually truly
[14:21] wealthy, they just borrowed assets the
[14:22] entire time.
[14:24] >> And so, let's let's take into
[14:25] demographics because this is like a
[14:27] terrifying chart that just has been
[14:28] circulating around and it talks about
[14:31] the demographics for the next generation
[14:33] for homeownership. This is the US
[14:34] homeownership rate by birth decade. Look
[14:37] at what it was previously to where the
[14:40] chart seemed to be going for the 1990s
[14:42] and 2000s. So, we're talking like Gen X,
[14:45] Gen Z, and my generation. I mean,
[14:48] people, you know, I'm 34 years old, the
[14:50] people I spend time with, they can't
[14:51] afford to have kids. They're opting to
[14:53] have just one kid. They don't need a
[14:54] larger house, but the people who are
[14:56] selling the houses right now here in
[14:57] Florida are the boomers that have 3,000
[14:59] square foot houses. They can't afford to
[15:01] send their kids to school. I mean,
[15:03] they're really struggling even with the
[15:05] dual income because the interest rates
[15:07] skyrocketed so quickly. And look at
[15:10] the 2000s.
[15:12] I mean, what what does this tell you
[15:14] about the future generation? Like
[15:16] are these younger generations completely
[15:18] screwed because they're loaded up with
[15:19] debt? They can't afford a home that kind
[15:22] of acts as like a little piggy bank if
[15:23] they hold it long-term for 30 years and
[15:25] write it in and pay it off. What do you
[15:27] say to these younger generations who are
[15:30] completely priced out? Or are there is
[15:33] there nothing that they can do?
[15:35] Firstly, I say I'm sorry. And and and
[15:37] because this is horrible and this is not
[15:40] what we want as a country and I think
[15:42] that we're seeing the results of this in
[15:44] increased violence all over the country.
[15:47] Several mass shootings over the weekend
[15:49] in the South. Uh people are hurting. And
[15:52] so, this is this is a terrible thing and
[15:55] I apologize even though I I am
[15:58] was a victim as well, I apologize. And
[16:01] actually, my family was a very early
[16:03] victim during our last bout with
[16:05] inflation and I lost my home to
[16:07] foreclosure when I was nine. So, I get
[16:09] it. And and I want everyone to have
[16:11] shelter because it's it's one of our you
[16:14] know, it's Maslow's need. So, uh you
[16:17] know, I do think there's hope because
[16:20] this cannot sustain. You cannot crush
[16:22] the backs of these younger generations
[16:25] like this. They will get angry. They
[16:27] will take to the streets like they're
[16:28] doing all over the world right now.
[16:31] You're hearing about it all over the
[16:32] world, Gen Z protest. Because we're not
[16:35] the only place in this situation. Right.
[16:38] >> And so, things have to change. And so,
[16:42] and I'm very much in the middle
[16:43] politically and I hate talking about it,
[16:46] but what I would encourage everybody to
[16:47] do is stop listening to what they say
[16:50] and look at what they're doing. And
[16:52] right now, they put the guardrails on
[16:54] this FHA program. Will they pull it back
[16:57] when things get too bad?
[16:59] Uh they might because nobody wants to be
[17:01] that out of favor and there's midterms
[17:02] around the corner. But doing things like
[17:05] this are going to have real impacts. Uh
[17:08] cutting SNAP and Medicaid, like these
[17:12] things are going to have impacts. And
[17:15] so, watch what they're doing versus what
[17:17] they're saying. You know, I think we're
[17:18] probably gearing up for some builder
[17:20] bailout around affordable housing, but
[17:23] that's I mean,
[17:25] again a case of are they really that
[17:27] dumb that they think we don't have
[17:29] enough houses? Or is it that that's the
[17:32] narrative, so that's the story and we're
[17:34] sticking to it and when we have to bail
[17:36] out the builders, that'll be the
[17:38] narrative. Um and we will do affordable
[17:41] building projects. The problem is I
[17:43] think once they get out there on the
[17:44] roads, they're going to see how much is
[17:46] already out there. So, I wouldn't be
[17:48] surprised if, for instance, the
[17:50] government gets in the buying uh the
[17:52] buying of subdivisions business and
[17:54] buying back from PE, actually all those
[17:57] homes they sold at the end of the last
[17:58] crisis. But I say, "Hold on."
[18:01] And while you're waiting, don't make
[18:05] bad decisions. Uh YOLO is one of the
[18:09] worst diseases in our current society
[18:13] because they won't it feels as if the
[18:15] narrative is you'll never be able to
[18:17] afford anything, so just keep spinning.
[18:19] Well, why do they want you to keep
[18:20] spinning?
[18:22] Cuz consumption is 70% of our gross
[18:25] domestic product. And so, they need you
[18:27] to keep spinning. They need you to get
[18:30] into debt. Um but you have options to
[18:33] vote with your dollars. When consumption
[18:36] is that big of a percent of our economy,
[18:39] your buying decisions make a difference.
[18:42] And I think you're seeing that right
[18:43] now, John, where uh buyers are just
[18:46] being like, "You're crazy. I I mean,
[18:48] you're just absolutely crazy. I'm not
[18:49] paying that." I mean, the housing market
[18:51] has been frozen for almost 2 and 1/2
[18:53] years now, really more. And because
[18:56] buyers are saying, "No, thank you. I'm
[18:58] not going to do this." And so, continue
[19:00] to do that because that's the only way
[19:02] that sellers are going to understand.
[19:04] Now, everybody has a different life
[19:06] situation. I'm not I can't give everyone
[19:08] advice. And if you don't have to take on
[19:10] leverage and you can sustain a certain
[19:13] amount of loss, then you know, of course
[19:14] you consider this. But most Americans
[19:17] are not in that boat. And people are
[19:19] afraid for their jobs. We've got layoffs
[19:21] increasing. And so, just know that you
[19:24] do have agency. Don't spend all your
[19:27] money at Starbucks. You know, don't I
[19:29] mean, honestly, one Starbucks a day is
[19:32] one mortgage payment for a year. Like if
[19:34] you just didn't do that, that's and
[19:36] that's not insignificant. I know that a
[19:38] lot of people are like, "Well, yeah, but
[19:40] I'll never get there." You will. It just
[19:43] takes work and just hold on while
[19:45] everybody else is making really bad
[19:47] decisions, hold on to your cash, let it
[19:50] grow, and then you'll be in a place when
[19:53] this market turns as it has to. The only
[19:56] other option is that wages go up and
[19:58] don't cause
[19:59] inflation.
[20:01] And that's I mean that's the only so
[20:03] which
[20:04] wage price spiral is exactly what
[20:06] everybody's terrified of. You know,
[20:08] that's why immigration was allowed
[20:11] because they would needed cheap labor to
[20:13] keep everything going post
[20:15] the last during our last
[20:19] crisis.
[20:20] When we were shut down when we were
[20:22] locked down.
[20:23] Yeah, exactly. Well, I you know, I think
[20:25] that's great advice. You know, get as
[20:26] frugal as possible and you need to save.
[20:29] If you're in these younger generations,
[20:31] you need to be really good at
[20:32] negotiating because you're not going to
[20:34] have a pension. You're not going to have
[20:35] social security. You're not going to
[20:37] have these social safety net kind of
[20:39] handout programs from the government
[20:40] most likely because we're in such a
[20:42] terrible fiscal situation. Uh and in the
[20:45] debt load of the US government, it's
[20:46] unlikely that you're going to get these
[20:48] benefits that the boomers are currently
[20:51] having because they're staying at home
[20:52] in their their houses. They're getting
[20:53] checks delivered, you know, to them and
[20:56] it's a you're not going to have that. So
[20:57] you have to save otherwise you might be
[21:00] working your entire life past your 70s
[21:03] until you die. So if you don't make
[21:05] these changes now, it's it's going to be
[21:07] really painful, you know, work life for
[21:09] you unless you love to work which I
[21:10] don't know most people that I feel like
[21:11] they don't want to work their entire
[21:13] life. They would like to have some sort
[21:14] of golden years. Mhm.
[21:16] Yeah, yeah.
[21:17] That's great advice and as you
[21:19] mentioned, we're going to have a lot of
[21:21] the older generation sadly pass away and
[21:23] then the younger generations come in and
[21:25] I know the stats show about 70% of those
[21:28] sellers
[21:29] of those properties that are inherited
[21:31] go to be sold. Mhm. Now, all of that new
[21:34] inventory has to be absorbed by some
[21:37] sort of buyer and what we're seeing
[21:39] Melody locally,
[21:40] rents are down 15 to 20% just in the
[21:44] last 2 years because people are failing
[21:47] to sell their house or they're
[21:48] inheriting a house. There's someone
[21:50] buying it as a rental. It's coming on as
[21:52] a rental. And we just had like this
[21:54] rental stacking up left and right. And
[21:57] I'll give you an example and I'd love
[21:58] your thoughts on it because we're trying
[22:00] to figure out how do we help these
[22:01] homeowners? There's a a young couple.
[22:03] They're in their 30s. They bought at 360
[22:06] in a new construction community in 2022
[22:08] and they have it listed for 318 now.
[22:12] And the builder is selling them at 275
[22:15] with rate buy downs to the 3%. They
[22:18] don't have any money. They put 20% down,
[22:21] well-to-do people and they have a
[22:23] mortgage of around like 298 or something
[22:26] like that. And the builder selling it
[22:28] for less with the incentives. They have
[22:29] to move for work.
[22:31] What do these people do? And this is
[22:33] what we're talking about like the lock
[22:35] in effect. Like people are just getting
[22:36] locked in and then they look at trying
[22:37] to rent it, right? Cuz that's their
[22:38] initial gut reaction. Hey, I need to
[22:39] rent this. They'd be underwater $800,
[22:42] $900 a month and they would lose their
[22:44] homestead and their insurance would go
[22:46] up because it's a rental property. So
[22:47] your taxes and insurance would go up the
[22:49] minute that you start renting it out. So
[22:51] they're
[22:52] we're trying to help them and there
[22:53] seems to be no solution and we're seeing
[22:56] this nearly every day, one or two calls
[22:58] a day from our brokerage, from our
[23:00] agents. I'm in the situation, what do I
[23:02] do to help these people? Is there a
[23:04] solution or
[23:06] do they just have to bite the bullet and
[23:07] try to short sale it and and find a way
[23:10] out? Do they try to ride it out and just
[23:12] find a way to pay that $800, $900 a
[23:14] month but then they have the repairs on
[23:16] top of that.
[23:17] What do you tell these people who are
[23:19] who are in these communities cuz that is
[23:21] where we're seeing the majority of the
[23:21] distress is around the new construction
[23:24] where it's completely over built.
[23:27] Well, John, this is why in 2023 I I've
[23:30] been pounding the table on this exact
[23:33] scenario. Every city I visit, we talk
[23:35] about this cuz this is exactly what's
[23:37] going to happen or they could turn it
[23:39] around and sell sell it to, you know, a
[23:42] short-term like a long-term rental
[23:45] company like American Homes for Rent or
[23:47] something like that. And suddenly you're
[23:49] next door to a whole bunch of renters
[23:51] when you thought you were going to be
[23:52] and you know what happens to those
[23:53] rental properties. They degrade so
[23:56] quickly. I mean, I see some that are 6
[23:57] months old, they look like they're 5
[23:59] years old. So unfortun- I was just at a
[24:01] conference in Dallas a couple weeks ago
[24:03] and got to be in the room with a large
[24:06] or actually, yeah.
[24:08] One of these institutional investors
[24:10] where they're actually offloading
[24:11] properties and that's another thing
[24:13] that's going to happen in Atlanta and
[24:15] other places where they are they're big.
[24:18] And and also in that conversation we
[24:20] talked about how short sales are
[24:22] exploding all over the country. And so
[24:24] here's what I would say, don't don't
[24:26] chase a a falling knife, right? Like
[24:29] you we don't know how low this is going
[24:31] to go. And so why would you basically
[24:34] add on $800 of expenses each month while
[24:39] home prices continue to probably
[24:40] decline. Right. And and then you're
[24:43] ultimately way underwater. And also
[24:45] let's talk about quality of life. Yes,
[24:47] could you hire a project a property
[24:49] management company but then, you know,
[24:51] that's just another headache on top of
[24:53] it. I know people that have long-term
[24:55] rentals. To me, you have to bite the
[24:57] bullet. You have to short sell it. Get
[24:58] out from under that debt and because
[25:01] that debt is going to be like an
[25:02] albatross around your neck. It's going
[25:04] to cause personal problems. If you're
[25:06] married, money's one of the biggest
[25:08] things that people argue about and so I
[25:11] think you have to just get rid of it. I
[25:13] mean, it if you aren't in kind of a
[25:15] negative cash flow, you might could hold
[25:18] on to it for a little but that equity
[25:20] position you just talked about, I mean,
[25:22] my advice all day would be get just get
[25:25] out of it as fast as possible. Cut your
[25:27] losses.
[25:28] Start over.
[25:30] Save. It's so unfortunate. I wish I
[25:32] could prevent it. I mean, that's
[25:34] that's why I do all of this.
[25:36] Yeah, that's why I do it too. I feel
[25:37] like no one else is really talking about
[25:39] the actual consequences on the ground of
[25:40] what's happening to the day-to-day
[25:42] person and not only that, if they don't
[25:44] get rid of it, rents are still coming
[25:45] down. I mean, they're building phase
[25:47] two, phase three, phase four around the
[25:49] corner in these builders.
[25:51] They're continuing to build which is
[25:53] just mind-boggling to me. They're
[25:54] building entire communities and then
[25:56] they're flipping them over to like
[25:58] American Homes for Rent, Invitation
[26:00] Homes, Progress Homes. They're just
[26:01] buying the entire community and these
[26:03] rentals haven't even come online yet.
[26:05] And so
[26:07] I just don't think real estate has
[26:09] long-term legs for appreciation at least
[26:11] in our area because you can build
[26:13] anywhere.
[26:14] You can build them really affordably and
[26:17] people are looking for lower price
[26:18] everything. So they're going to move to
[26:20] to those areas and maybe if they're
[26:22] working from home half the week, it
[26:23] doesn't matter exactly where they live.
[26:25] They're fine with living outside of the
[26:26] city versus living inside the city. So
[26:28] there's a lot of different preferences
[26:30] there. Now, I want to switch gears to
[26:32] the luxury market because we're starting
[26:34] to see some pretty interesting
[26:36] information come out on the luxury side
[26:38] which we always talk about Melody that
[26:40] perhaps the luxury folks are a little
[26:42] bit more insulated than the dual income
[26:45] workers and things like that. But
[26:47] recently data came out according to uh
[26:50] Redfin and that August low sales of
[26:52] luxury homes dropped to the lowest
[26:53] August levels. And this is like a big
[26:55] argument, right? Oh, we're in a unique
[26:56] area. There's not a lot of inventory.
[26:59] There's nowhere left to build and these
[27:02] houses are still going to sell. It's not
[27:03] a problem. Meanwhile, the data is coming
[27:06] out. It's kind of showing, you know,
[27:08] hey, we're going back to
[27:10] even worse than 2019 levels. What is
[27:13] going on here? Is the narrative
[27:15] >> that we're getting from the media just
[27:16] completely broken over and over again,
[27:18] right? We We have the housing shortage.
[27:20] We're going to continue on this big bull
[27:22] run. Luxury is insulated. The north is
[27:25] insulated. It seems like all of these
[27:26] type of narratives
[27:28] are not reality when you look at the
[27:31] actual data. And so what do you think of
[27:33] this chart?
[27:34] Well, I love it because it shows what
[27:37] I've been talking about. You can look in
[27:40] all of my 80 markets that luxury that's
[27:42] been sitting
[27:43] for a year or more. I mean, how many
[27:45] people do you know John that can afford
[27:47] a $49 million home?
[27:50] Many, right? And so these are these are
[27:52] sitting all over the country. Think
[27:55] about California again.
[27:57] But they're everywhere because guess
[27:59] what? People built these million dollar
[28:01] homes for spec without a buyer.
[28:04] I mean, I talked to several in 23, 24, I
[28:07] talked to several realtors turned, you
[28:09] know, developers or whatever with
[28:11] properties saying in Encinitas for 20
[28:14] million, 30 I'm like, how do you I mean,
[28:16] how do you have the what's to build like
[28:19] that? To build something for spec like
[28:21] that. But you can see it now. I believe
[28:24] I was looking at a recent chart from the
[28:27] University of Michigan consumer
[28:28] sentiment survey and even the super
[28:30] prime are coming down. Their sentiment
[28:32] is because guess what? They're at the
[28:34] end of the LPs in these multi-family
[28:37] deals that are imploding all across the
[28:40] country. They're the investors that
[28:43] bought some of this debt from Tricolor
[28:45] or First Brands or whatever. These These
[28:48] people are also getting hurt right now.
[28:51] It's it's harder because, you know, what
[28:53] what what do we hear
[28:55] breaking news yesterday? Chase
[28:57] blew out earnings, right? Well, of
[28:59] course they didn't mention the provision
[29:01] for loan loss that also increased cuz
[29:03] they know what's coming. They're a bank.
[29:05] They know how they're going to make
[29:07] money through the good times and the bad
[29:09] times, okay?
[29:11] They're they've been through this
[29:12] several times. And so the narrative is
[29:15] just completely false. And it makes
[29:18] everybody think So it made all these
[29:21] developers think that we had a ton more
[29:22] rich people in this country or they
[29:24] thought they would be foreign buyers.
[29:25] But foreign buyers are also in their
[29:27] native countries are suffering. People
[29:29] talk a lot about Canada and how, you
[29:32] know, it's all about Trump and that's
[29:33] why they're not coming here. Well, it's
[29:35] also about what's going on in their
[29:36] economy, what's going on in their
[29:39] housing market. And so foreign buyers,
[29:41] although it kicked up again a little bit
[29:43] this year, that's because it it went
[29:45] through the floor last year. And so
[29:49] this luxury is everywhere and it gives
[29:51] me Golden Coast vibes. If anybody can
[29:53] look at Long Island eat the Hamptons
[29:56] look like before the Great Depression
[29:58] and what it looks like, you know, now
[30:00] very different because you just have so
[30:03] much of this luxury spec out there and
[30:06] you do not have enough people with the
[30:08] money to buy it. So, yeah, it's all
[30:10] false narratives. Yeah, and what happens
[30:13] Melly when the stock market cracks,
[30:14] right? Cuz I mean, we're it seems like
[30:17] we're in all-time highs for the stocks
[30:19] as well and the ratios there like some
[30:21] of the highest ratios we've ever seen
[30:24] in terms of the AI bubble and what
[30:27] happens when that market goes out? Won't
[30:28] that crush luxury as well? Oh, yeah,
[30:31] absolutely. And I think you're probably
[30:33] already seeing So, I think very wealthy
[30:36] investors are a bit smarter or that at
[30:39] least they have some people that know a
[30:42] little bit more, which is why you've
[30:43] seen insider selling like at it just all
[30:47] over the place. And so, they've already
[30:49] kind of pulled back cuz they know April
[30:52] was a big warning sign to them. This
[30:55] recent drawdown was a warning sign to
[30:57] them. What it was for retail and certain
[31:00] gamblers in the market that know how to
[31:02] make money off of it
[31:04] was oh, buy the dip. That's going to pay
[31:07] off. And again, unfortunately, retail
[31:09] will be the bag holders here. But yeah,
[31:11] I think it's already
[31:13] because of what people saw in April,
[31:15] it's already having an impact on the
[31:18] market. Now, the young and dumb
[31:22] are still out there thinking they're
[31:23] rich, but you know, boomers have been
[31:26] through the GFC and and they realize
[31:30] some of them, not all of them.
[31:32] Uh but I think that yes, if this and
[31:35] here we should just say there's so much
[31:36] fraud in all of this. That's the other
[31:38] thing that I think is way worse. We had
[31:40] one Enron.
[31:42] Right? I think we've got multiple at the
[31:44] moment doing like tricolor was doing
[31:48] double pledging, but then you have this
[31:50] round-tripping that is just inherent to
[31:53] AI and and and nobody seems to care, but
[31:56] it will matter. And so, I think to your
[31:58] point, one of the only reasons we
[32:00] haven't seen more significant price
[32:03] declines this year is that people look
[32:05] to the stock market and think, well,
[32:07] surely it can't be that bad. But I would
[32:09] just like to mention one of the reasons
[32:11] I got back into
[32:13] macro was because of what was happening
[32:16] in the stock market when the world was
[32:18] locked down. And I was like, this isn't
[32:20] right. All these businesses are closing,
[32:22] there's bankruptcies, people can't
[32:23] afford their mortgage. And so, yes. And
[32:26] I would also like to remind people that,
[32:28] you know, New Century filed bankruptcy.
[32:30] They were the first kind of big company
[32:32] in 2007. The stock market did not bottom
[32:36] until March of 2009. So, it takes time
[32:40] for these things to wash through the
[32:41] system. So, to your point that is just
[32:44] going to have a huge impact on housing.
[32:47] As but what you'll see there is it won't
[32:49] be motivated anymore. It'll be
[32:51] distressed just fire selling left and
[32:54] right. Yeah, and I want to show you
[32:56] another chart cuz it kind of goes into
[32:57] this of what the sellers' mindsets are,
[32:59] right? If the stock market is fine, they
[33:01] can afford to pull their house off of
[33:03] the market and wait for a better time.
[33:06] But if the stock market starts to tank
[33:07] and they really do need to get out of
[33:09] their house, I expect there to be a ton
[33:10] of inventory to come back on. So, we
[33:12] call this rage quitting or rage
[33:14] canceling here locally. We just termed
[33:16] it ourselves because we're seeing it
[33:18] every single day. The seller lists the
[33:19] house for 2 to 3 weeks, they get no
[33:21] showings cuz it's overpriced, it's
[33:23] completely outdated, they're
[33:24] unrealistic, they won't listen to the
[33:25] realtor. And I know there's a lot of
[33:27] media that says like, oh, like realtors
[33:28] try to push prices higher. Guys, it's
[33:30] nonsense. It's supply and demand and the
[33:33] buyers won't pay the price and we don't
[33:35] have any control over the buyers in the
[33:37] market. They get to decide what they
[33:38] want to do. We help facilitate the
[33:39] transaction.
[33:41] But this is the more withdrawals per
[33:42] year. This data comes from Compass.
[33:43] Withdrawn listings as a percentage of
[33:44] new listings. So, 42.3%
[33:48] which is much higher than prior years,
[33:50] which is crazy. And we expect, you know,
[33:54] if the stock market does crack,
[33:56] something is going to cause it to go
[33:58] down. I mean, it's gone up what? Like
[34:00] 38% since March. Something unheard of.
[34:03] It's crazy and the government seems to
[34:05] think we can continue to push growth and
[34:08] asset growth across the board and it's
[34:11] it seems to me like it's all artificial.
[34:12] If it's if it's government, it's not
[34:14] actual true value creation. But that's
[34:16] allowing these buyers these sellers to
[34:19] pull their properties off the market
[34:21] because they feel like they can wait it
[34:22] out. But I have a feeling that the
[34:24] majority of these withdrawn, if they
[34:25] really do need to sell, which people
[34:27] don't usually list their house unless
[34:28] they're really serious. I mean, do you
[34:30] really want other strangers walking
[34:32] through your house,
[34:33] >> Exactly. cleaning it every week, getting
[34:34] out of your
[34:35] putting your dog in and out? Like
[34:37] they're serious. They just want the
[34:39] price that they want. And I think, you
[34:40] know, my advice to sellers now is like,
[34:42] you need to sell if you really need to
[34:44] sell.
[34:46] Do it now and be realistic about the
[34:48] price because as you said, it doesn't
[34:50] look better next year. Like there is not
[34:52] one Melly, is there one economic
[34:54] indicator that you follow other than
[34:56] maybe interest rates slowing down, but
[34:58] probably for the wrong reason cuz we're
[34:59] having issues with employment. Is there
[35:01] any other indicator other than interest
[35:03] rates that like is pointing to a better
[35:05] market next year that you're seeing out
[35:07] of all the data that you track? No.
[35:09] Okay. I can't find
[35:10] >> And and even interest rates, like we
[35:12] don't know what the bond market's going
[35:14] to do. I mean it could it it is it has
[35:18] been very
[35:21] What's the word? It it just it's
[35:22] refusing to act how everybody wants it
[35:25] to act. And then there's there's all
[35:27] kinds of levers. If this thing
[35:29] accelerates with China, right? They can
[35:33] stop buying
[35:34] the 10-year Treasury. And they've
[35:36] already pulled back. Some say, oh,
[35:37] they're buying it through Cayman. That's
[35:39] probably true. Uh but they could pull
[35:41] that lever at any point and no matter
[35:43] what we do here, no matter what then we
[35:47] are going to be in a situation where
[35:49] that 10-year Treasury stays above 4%.
[35:53] Now, we're waffling. I don't know, we
[35:55] might even be moving below four right
[35:56] now as we did for an hour after Fed
[36:01] after Powell cut rates. And then it went
[36:04] right back up to that four floor.
[36:06] Uh so, we don't know. So, I don't even
[36:08] think rates are positive story. It's,
[36:11] you know, it's been the promise for the
[36:12] last 3 years, but it's not happening.
[36:15] And so, who did we are in an environment
[36:18] now where so many things could one
[36:21] little It's like a little
[36:22] little pinprick from China.
[36:25] Boom.
[36:26] I don't see anything coming for housing,
[36:28] nor did I in uh in 2022 at the end of
[36:33] you know, I could tell we were at the
[36:34] end of this bubble or you know, the the
[36:37] run-up and that's when housing peaked.
[36:39] And then from there, I I said this to
[36:42] her I used to always do weekly lunch and
[36:44] learns, you know, where I would talk
[36:45] like this to the company and I said to
[36:48] everyone around me, I was like, who is
[36:51] coming to buy now? Like why do you think
[36:54] housing is going to right?
[36:55] >> Yeah. And and by the end of that
[36:56] conversation, every one of them good got
[36:58] it. And they of course, we were all
[37:00] subject to the cheerleading that never
[37:02] stops and in the industry itself. But
[37:05] so, the fact that people can't get it
[37:08] means that there's something fishy going
[37:10] on, you know, because this is there's
[37:12] nothing coming for housing. What? Unless
[37:14] they open the immigration again. I mean
[37:17] how politically palatable is that right
[37:20] now? So, yeah.
[37:23] Look at the Fed's balance sheet. I mean,
[37:25] could the Fed go in and go purchase a
[37:27] bunch more of at mortgage-backed
[37:28] securities where they're already
[37:29] manipulating interest rates so low
[37:32] already? Do you see the Fed stepping in
[37:35] and starting to buy mortgage-backed
[37:37] securities to try to keep this propped
[37:39] up? Because I mean, there's going to be
[37:40] issues too. If the housing market really
[37:42] does crack the way that I see it
[37:43] playing, the boomers are going to lose
[37:45] the majority of their wealth right upon
[37:46] retirement. That's a huge problem for
[37:49] them. So, like the government has to
[37:50] decide if they're going to bail out the
[37:51] boomers or they're going to let the
[37:53] market correct and let the next
[37:55] generation have a chance at building
[37:56] wealth.
[37:58] Right. So,
[37:59] the Fed bought MBS in 2009. It didn't
[38:02] make a dang bit of difference. Okay?
[38:06] And by the way, in this last purchase
[38:08] operation, they rates got the lowest and
[38:12] then they started their way back up and
[38:13] then Fed was still buying. They bought
[38:15] 700 billion more and rates were going up
[38:19] the entire time. Okay? Cuz that spread
[38:22] is not uh again, the bond market is in
[38:25] control, no matter what anybody says.
[38:28] Okay? And most recently, it was like,
[38:30] oh, if Fannie and Freddie go private,
[38:32] they can buy MBS. Well, that would be a
[38:33] surefire way for them to die as
[38:35] organizations
[38:37] us having to come in as taxpayers again.
[38:40] So, I
[38:41] I think that people just don't
[38:43] understand
[38:45] there there's really no other cards
[38:47] left. I come
[38:48] we are moving toward a command and
[38:50] control economy where the much more
[38:53] likely income or outcome is that there's
[38:56] some sort of state
[38:58] program
[39:00] housing where they sell you the home. I
[39:02] mean, it's not even like So, the Fed I
[39:06] think I think most people understand
[39:09] that the Fed became irrelevant in
[39:11] September of 2024. They really did. Now,
[39:14] where are they relevant? To your point
[39:17] exactly, these people are going to be
[39:18] retiring right as everything is going
[39:20] down. Well, guess what they might have
[39:22] to do?
[39:24] They might have to sell their stocks.
[39:26] Right. Because and so, I mean, this
[39:28] whole thing is you can't look across a
[39:31] system and see something that's just
[39:32] standing out there shiny and is going to
[39:35] come in and save everybody. Every single
[39:38] one of these choices has real negative
[39:41] outcomes like what you're saying, and
[39:43] not just impacting the younger
[39:45] generation, impacting the boomers, too.
[39:48] And
[39:48] I think that we're kind of we're out of
[39:50] options, and we've got to rinse out the
[39:53] speculation from the system. Housing has
[39:56] to become about shelter again. I'm
[39:58] looking forward to the day that housing
[40:00] is so boring, I don't have to talk about
[40:02] it anymore,
[40:03] and I can talk I can go write fiction
[40:05] novels or do something like that.
[40:07] Yeah, I I don't know if that'll ever
[40:09] happen. It seems like it's the most
[40:10] manipulated thing. I've been studying it
[40:12] since 2009 myself, and it seems like
[40:15] it's just constantly being manipulated
[40:17] up and down through interest rates,
[40:19] through incentives for builders.
[40:22] Everything Every time the government
[40:23] gets involved with everything, it
[40:24] creates these unintended consequences
[40:26] that show up 20 years later, and there's
[40:28] a generation that pays the price for it,
[40:30] and another part and and there's a
[40:31] winner and a loser from these decisions
[40:34] that they make versus just letting the
[40:35] market be an actual free market. I feel
[40:37] like we'd be in a much better position
[40:39] >> Yeah. in a free market. Like, what would
[40:42] real interest rates be if we didn't have
[40:43] all these mortgage-backed securities
[40:45] that were purchased from our government?
[40:46] What would it look like? Would it be 10
[40:48] 12% and prices would be 30 40% lower
[40:51] already, and we wouldn't have this
[40:53] affordability crisis
[40:55] that is causing so much issue, and then
[40:57] there would be less speculation because
[40:59] there would be less build-up of equity
[41:01] in these homes that people think is kind
[41:02] of phantom equity at this time at this
[41:04] point because until you sell, that's not
[41:06] real money.
[41:07] On the first time. cost to buy and sell,
[41:09] which people don't talk about enough, is
[41:11] incredibly high. I mean, you're paying
[41:15] um 6% going in, you're paying 6% going
[41:17] out, so you need to have this your house
[41:19] appreciate on top of the repairs more
[41:21] than 12%.
[41:23] And that's going to take at least
[41:25] generally in a normal market 5 years. In
[41:27] a down market, I mean, it could take
[41:28] more than a decade or so. I think a lot
[41:30] of these people they think it's a great
[41:31] investment, but it's all about what you
[41:33] buy the asset for, and right now it's
[41:36] too high. It's too high, and I fear for
[41:38] my friends who are getting in, and
[41:40] they're getting tricked by the builders.
[41:41] And they're saying, "Oh, I'm going to
[41:42] get a 3% rate." And they're getting the
[41:44] affordability. They'll never be able to
[41:45] sell that house because when they sell
[41:46] it, the next person will will have to
[41:49] get you know, they'll have a 6% rate
[41:51] instead of a 3% rate, so they're going
[41:52] to be locked in, or they're going to
[41:54] have to reduce the price by a couple
[41:55] hundred thousand dollars
[41:57] uh to make it competitive with where the
[41:58] new market's at. So, we're getting the
[42:00] word out. We're trying to educate the
[42:02] consumer on what their options are. And
[42:04] by the way, in a lot of areas because
[42:06] rents have been dropping, you can
[42:07] negotiate your rents and it's great
[42:10] >> while you wait this thing out and what
[42:12] this playing out. Like, when are we
[42:14] going to start seeing the distress where
[42:16] the housing wire people can no longer
[42:19] ignore reality? They I mean, obviously,
[42:21] they shouldn't be ignoring it now, but
[42:23] it seems like this is pretty obvious
[42:24] that it's coming and it's headed this
[42:26] way. When do you think they will finally
[42:28] get it and it'll really start showing up
[42:30] in the data?
[42:31] Honestly,
[42:34] I didn't believe that we would need to
[42:36] get to foreclosures for this stuff to
[42:38] play out due to the increased cost, but
[42:41] the narrative has just been so strong,
[42:43] but I think by Q2 of 2026,
[42:46] we are going to have material
[42:47] foreclosures. We're already up year over
[42:48] year. Don't ever be fooled by the
[42:51] month-over-month movement because
[42:53] um what happens in loss mitigation is
[42:56] somebody goes on a workout, they fail
[42:58] out, they get back on, they fail out
[43:00] again, they get back on, and so it's
[43:02] always this push and pull. You've got to
[43:04] look at the accumulation.
[43:06] And I believe Black Knight last month
[43:08] said we were foreclosures were up 17%
[43:11] year over year. It's actually more than
[43:12] that. Black Knight does not have the
[43:14] number three largest specialty servicer
[43:16] on its platform. So, they can't give you
[43:19] foreclosure numbers. You know, Adam it
[43:21] does not have all of the information,
[43:23] either. And so, I think though by Q2
[43:26] 2026,
[43:28] we're it's going to be clear, and we're
[43:30] going to have material foreclosures
[43:32] unless, you know, again, some other
[43:34] government intervention or and often the
[43:37] state AGs will also get involved cuz
[43:39] there's going to be all kinds of
[43:41] accusations like last time.
[43:42] Foreclosure's a dirty word
[43:45] Right.
[43:45] >> media, and I've already seen several
[43:47] articles that look like attempts to kind
[43:50] of smear that process again. But I can
[43:53] tell you, I was recently helping someone
[43:55] on a case,
[43:57] and I you know, what did happen uh So,
[44:00] Dodd-Frank got its teeth pulled with uh
[44:02] on the origination side when they
[44:04] removed that debt-to-income threshold.
[44:06] However, on the servicing side, no teeth
[44:08] were pulled.
[44:10] It is so strict what you have to do that
[44:13] I was just hired someone wanted me to
[44:15] look at a case for them of wrongful
[44:16] foreclosure, and after 3 hours, I could
[44:19] point give them a hundred examples of
[44:21] how their clients knew exactly what was
[44:23] going on, even in hearing it in the the
[44:26] phone call. Uh and so, they're going to
[44:28] try that again. Uh it'll make it dirty.
[44:31] So, there's going to be things that slow
[44:32] this down, but I do believe Q2 2026, and
[44:36] honestly, defaults are going to rise
[44:39] from here, no matter what calendar
[44:42] effect Black Knight thinks is causing
[44:44] the problem, which
[44:45] is just
[44:46] ludicrous, and they know it. They know
[44:48] it. Um so, uh yeah, I think
[44:51] barring anything else, that's when we're
[44:53] really going to understand the problem.
[44:55] And it'll be In many ways, they've
[44:57] already pivoted. It's just been a soft
[45:00] pivot. You can watch them, and they're
[45:02] softly pivoting. They'll get there. Of
[45:05] course, there has to be some
[45:07] They'll get to blame it on the stock
[45:08] market, or they'll get to blame it on
[45:10] tariffs, or whatever, but this was this
[45:12] was always our path since the little
[45:15] boom began in 2020. Yeah, exactly. And
[45:19] we're already seeing it show up, right?
[45:20] In autos and credit card delinquencies
[45:23] and all this kind of stuff. And so, the
[45:24] last shoe to drop, it seems like, is
[45:26] housing. So, we kind of see the stress
[45:29] elsewhere for now, and kind of like when
[45:31] interest rates when the Fed raises
[45:33] interest rates, you're not going to see
[45:34] the impact for 6 to 8 months. It seems
[45:35] like, okay, we're seeing the car in the
[45:37] in the
[45:38] uh other delinquencies. Okay, we're not
[45:40] going to see housing for another 6 to 8
[45:42] months. And of course, the FHA workout
[45:43] program changing and things like that.
[45:45] So, all right, guys, Q2 of next year is
[45:49] when we need to revisit this
[45:50] conversation and see where things are
[45:52] at. I am in complete agreement with
[45:54] Melody and her prediction and her time
[45:56] frame because we're seeing it on the
[45:58] ground. I mean, in Florida, we're kind
[45:59] of seeing it I feel like early.
[46:01] Always. Always.
[46:04] Highly speculative. I think about 35% of
[46:06] the purchases over the last 5 years were
[46:09] from
[46:10] speculators, right? The Invitation
[46:12] Homes, Progress Homes, all this kind of
[46:13] stuff. They boosted the prices up so
[46:14] high, they priced out the local
[46:16] population. The local population hasn't
[46:19] been able to catch up in terms of wages
[46:20] and productivity, and have just
[46:22] completely just been priced out, and now
[46:24] there's no one really left. Like you
[46:26] said, who is the next buyer of these
[46:29] assets, and we're not sure. And we think
[46:32] the only way that the buyers really come
[46:34] back in is when prices come down to a
[46:36] point where it starts competing with
[46:38] what people can rent.
[46:40] My models show a 31 to 42% decrease from
[46:45] October 2022, which is when it was the
[46:48] peak here locally in Florida. And we're
[46:50] already down 15% locally. I know a lot
[46:52] of people refuse to acknowledge the data
[46:54] Exactly what Yeah, I don't understand
[46:55] why people can't get to reality. I think
[46:58] they just rely their their income relies
[47:00] on them sharing this narrative that
[47:02] things are great, and they'll continue
[47:03] to move forward, and they don't have any
[47:04] standards, and they're scared that their
[47:06] income's drive drying up, and so they're
[47:08] willing to say whatever they need to say
[47:09] to get the sale. I think that's the
[47:10] wrong way to do business.
[47:12] And but that's why we see a lot of
[47:14] people buying at probably, in my
[47:16] opinion, and I'd love to hear what your
[47:17] thoughts are before we hop here,
[47:19] is this the worst time to buy ever in
[47:22] history, or was it like 23 24, or is it
[47:26] right now?
[47:28] Yeah, I think
[47:30] probably
[47:31] starting July 2022, and maybe even
[47:35] earlier, was the worst time to buy in
[47:39] history. I mean, and honestly, what
[47:41] you're seeing in the mortgage vintages
[47:43] 21, 22, 23 are the ones Yes. Um so,
[47:47] really, I I think the last good time was
[47:49] probably some maybe maybe in March of
[47:51] 2020, to be real honest with you.
[47:54] And maybe it was even 2019, but it is
[47:57] very bad, you know, um these past few
[47:59] years, and so I think this is
[48:02] definitely, if not the worst, it is a
[48:04] really bad time to buy, especially
[48:08] because of those demographics. Yeah, and
[48:10] I have a builder buddy who's like,
[48:12] "Well, it was only like 3 or 4 years
[48:13] that it was really a bad time to buy."
[48:15] And I was like, "Yes, but they were
[48:16] buying at double the rate, like nearly
[48:17] double the rate." It went from like 4
[48:19] million home sales to like 7 million
[48:21] annual, and you had that for a couple of
[48:23] years, these elevated number of sales.
[48:25] So, it is like a lot of people. You're
[48:27] talking, you know, 20 million purchases
[48:30] that are in this type of time frame
[48:32] that's really going to be painful. Um
[48:36] So, Melody, any final thoughts before we
[48:37] hop off here?
[48:39] Yeah, I'd like to share a couple of
[48:41] references. I think I've shared them
[48:42] with you before, but Bubble in the Sun,
[48:44] Swamp Peddlers, two great books to
[48:46] really talk about these cycles. As well
[48:48] as as you mentioned interest rates and
[48:51] kind of what we've seen the last 40
[48:52] years, which is not what it uh Since
[48:55] time immemorial, we've charged interest
[48:57] you
[48:58] before we could even write, and so
[49:01] earliest forms of writing show that
[49:05] It's called The Price of Time by uh
[49:07] Edward Chancellor. I recommend that to
[49:09] everyone because I think that we get we
[49:12] get locked in this recency bias, and we
[49:15] think things can't happen because they
[49:17] haven't happened in the last 40 years,
[49:19] but that's that's not time. So, those
[49:21] would be my recommendations. And
[49:23] finally, say no to uh debt slavery.
[49:25] Leverage is a killer, like quite
[49:28] literally. If you heard what happened
[49:30] this last crypto drops, a young man
[49:32] killed himself in his Lamborghini. Like,
[49:34] these are real-world consequences, and
[49:37] you need to be careful out there. So,
[49:38] just say no to debt slavery right now,
[49:41] especially when we're in this kind of
[49:42] economic environment. Yeah, and the
[49:45] gambling, too. There's like probably 10
[49:47] million males day trading every single
[49:50] day and if they just And most of them
[49:52] lose like 92% of people lose it all. So,
[49:54] don't try to get this quick
[49:56] get-rich-quick stuff. Stay focused on
[49:59] the day-to-day, cut your expenses, be
[50:01] frugal, be really strategic on when you
[50:03] purchase, what you purchase. And the
[50:05] good news is you can follow Melody and
[50:07] I'm sure when the time makes sense to
[50:09] purchase,
[50:11] you're going to be shouting it from the
[50:12] rooftops. I'm going to be shouting it
[50:13] from the rooftops. And both of us will
[50:14] probably be purchasing. So, we will keep
[50:17] you updated on what the market is doing
[50:20] and what we're doing and how we see
[50:22] things. And of course, this isn't
[50:23] financial advice. You make your own
[50:24] decisions. However, we're going to share
[50:26] what we're doing and you can decide what
[50:28] you can do from there. But Melody, this
[50:29] has been fantastic. Thank you for the
[50:31] advice as always. Thanks for getting the
[50:33] word out of what's going on. We need
[50:34] more people like you who are willing to
[50:36] share what's really going on on the
[50:38] ground and actually traveling around and
[50:39] seeing what is happening around the
[50:42] country because if you lived through
[50:44] Melody's eyes and saw what she sees and
[50:47] you see what I see when I walk out the
[50:49] door every single day. I see an
[50:50] apartment complex being built on every
[50:51] street corner, you would understand
[50:54] because you don't Sometimes you can't
[50:56] believe it until you see it. And once
[50:58] you see it, you can't unsee all of these
[51:00] like fake communities that have no one
[51:02] in them. And it's coming and it's just a
[51:04] matter of time until it plays out as
[51:06] Melody said. So, thank you as always for
[51:08] for being willing to contribute to to
[51:09] everybody here.
[51:11] Well, thank you so much for inviting me
[51:12] and it has been great to meet and know
[51:14] you and get that local intel. It's very
[51:17] important. So, thank you again for
[51:18] having me. Yep, thanks. And so, if you
[51:20] want to follow Melody, I do. I subscribe
[51:22] to her Substack. Go to her Substack,
[51:24] subscribe and it's money very well
[51:27] spent. You're going to get inside tips
[51:28] of what she sees happening on the ground
[51:30] and she has access to data that a lot of
[51:32] people don't have access to. So, thank
[51:34] you again, Melody, and we'll see you
[51:35] next time.